Rexorcist's Forum Threads

These two nominations have been posted in the Hall of Judgement.

https://metal.academy/hall/486

https://metal.academy/hall/487

Yeah, I guess you're right, Daniel. But it was worth a good experiment. I don't think my packed schedule both here and in the outside world would let me do just one album/clan per week anyway.

In other words, you'd make an average deathcore album :P

Ambient: Imagine if King Crimson and Tangerine Dream got together.  It would be a little jazzy, occasionally folksy, throw in an emotional rollercoaster with some chamber and black ambient, and maybe include a Philip Glass cover.

How would you make a folk pop album?

Dragoncorpse - The Drakketh Saga. Sure this album leans towards symphonic power metal, but deathcore is the more dominating genre there. Maybe a little too extreme for the kids, but at least the lyrics don't have any swearing.

I think that ultimately it must come down to the site owners to decide the policy for genre differentiation as ultimately it comes down to their vision for how they want the site to operate with respect to genres and how broad or narrow they wish the site's genre focus to be. Sure we could pick every release apart and debate the minutiae to arrive at a definitive sub-sub-genre, but what's the point, when you could just be digging on some cool sounds instead of stressing over whether something needs yet another new pigeonhole to be put into.

I get the whole "the listener may not like sub-genre A, but love sub-genre B" argument, but give people credit for being able to pick out what they do and don't like from within a reasonably broad genre definition. It sometimes sounds like we are saying that new music discovery is a trial rather than something exciting and we fear that  some listeners may be too fragile to accidentally hear something they don't enjoy and need to be shielded from the possibility.

All this deep-genre talk feels to me like reading an operating manual for a Ferrari rather than actually driving a Ferrari. Personally, I'd rather we kept the genres reasonably broad and let people make their own minds up. 

...but I still haven't read anything that tells me why we NEED to differentiate them in the database.

I believe the discussion boils down to this at the moment. It seems like we all agree that "Symphonic Power Metal" is a valid term that gets thrown around in discussions, but I think that the way that we have it currently with a "Symphonic Metal" tag and a "Power Metal" tag is a pretty catch-all setup. Examples that were brought up: 

• Therion - Theli, Vovin, and Secret of the Runes are all labeled Symphonic Metal primary with currently no subgenres, but probably could gain a Progressive or Death Metal one if people voted. No Power Metal, checks out. 
• Rhapsody - Dual Symphonic Metal and Power Metal primary genres. Checks out. 
• Nightwish - Early Nightwish has dual Symphonic/Power Metal primaries. Checks out. Starting at Imaginaerum it changes to a Symphonic primary and loses the Power Metal, checks out due to the even higher emphasis on orchestration. 
• Lacrimosa - I'm not familiar with this band but after putting on Echos for a bit it has a Symphonic primary and no Power Metal. Checks out. 
• Tristania - I'm not familiar with this band either but after listening to a little bit of Beyond the Veil I could see adding a Symphonic Metal primary alongside the Gothic Metal primary and maybe a Black Metal secondary? So it would be tagged as Symphonic Metal with no Power Metal, checks out.
• All of the bands listed as "Traditional Power Metal Bands" do not have the Symphonic Metal tag on them. Checks out. 

The point I'm trying to make is that apart from a few very niche exceptions, albums that are currently labeled as having Symphonic Metal and Power Metal primaries are what you are describing as Symphonic Power Metal. If the Symphonic Power Metal change were implemented, each album with both Symphonic and Power Metal primaries would gain this primary instead and lose the other two primaries. I could see this being an advantageous change for chart reasons so that Twilight Force wouldn't go toe-to-toe with Therion for Symphonic Metal, but they're still different forms of Symphonic Metal. While it might be nice to compare all your high-fantasy Rhapsody rip-offs under one tag, I think tagging that use of Symphonic Metal with a more traditional Tristania approach is still valid and has merit. Plus, the MA charts are only filterable by Clan at the moment, not genre.

I can agree with the point to want to differentiate old Nightwish (Once, Oceanborn) from Rhapsody, but I'm in the camp of people using their own reasoning from two broader primary genres rather than differentiating further. 

Especially since my mouse is acting up a little.

At least some of the material on "The Sound of Perseverance" was originally intended for Chuck's clean-sung progressive metal project Control Denied so it's hardly surprising that it doesn't sound like death metal.

I just discovered something.  If there are two conjoined albums two numbers apart, like 13 and 15, if you press up on the lower number or down on the high number, the numbers will be connected properly, say 13 and 14, or 14 and 15.

Thanks for telling me how to fix this.

Yeah, it's always perplexed me that people don't care for it since it's a great piece of Fates Warning-inspired prog metal. Guess it's just because it's not quite the sound they would become.

My favorite last time I listened to it is Hell - Curse and Chapter, while something that reflects more of what I listen to is Doom - Human Noise. Well-crafted technical, often veering into controlled chaos is more my forte than something that's just a perfectly crafted album of metal.

Different Hell than the one I've heard.  Classic heavy metal from the modern day is always welcome.

Oh, totally Ben. I was gonna raise that one too.

Well, it worked perfectly for my Meshuggah review.

https://metal.academy/reviews/26159/2600

To be fair, I'd listen to his death metal opinions above mine. We often disagree, but then I find myself coming around to his way of thinking more often than I'd like to admit (ssshhhh... don't tell him I said that).

I'd suggest that people make an exception with melodic death metal Ben. I think we both know that I can't be trusted to provide a fair judgement in that space.

Slam death metal is never usually my thing, as I tend to avoid the more brutal death metal subgenres, but Fanguine takes on a strong diverse direction in both the music and lyrical themes, instead of just gore, gore, and more gore. The music sounds quite good despite still sounding brutal, with several other metal genres thrown into their main technical/slam death metal sound. A couple highlights for me are the final two tracks; "Let Me Explain" with its "broken transmission" deathcore, and "Genocidal Genesis", a decently long progressive epic that still stands by their usual sound. I can definitely imagine the latter track making history in the extreme metal scene, and that final verse with "Angel of Death"-esque Nazi lyrics would definitely be making headlines. Lots of great moments in the album! Still too brutal for me, but highly recommendable for the more extreme metalheads. I give that album a personal rating of 3/5, or a percentage rating of 64%.

Emotional Suffering - Nocturnal Solitude

Primary genres: deathcore, melodic death metal

Secondary genres: dark folk, symphonic black metal, gothic metal

In November 19, 2027, an album is released to continue the rising scene of epic deathcore popularized by bands like Shadow of Intent, Lorna Shore, and Mental Cruelty. This is... Nocturnal Solitude by Emotional Suffering, a deathcore/melodic death metal band from Wisconsin. They expand on the dark lyrical themes mostly of death, depression, and loss, close to the lyrical themes that many doom metal bands have, but of course in a different sound. While sticking firmly in melodic deathcore, elements of genres like dark folk, symphonic black metal, and gothic metal are added into the mix. The ethereal yet spooky cover art is by a young artist inspired by the late Mariusz Lewandowski, a tree being blown heavily by a dark lightning storm, with a background mirage of a Grim Reaper. After the short symphonic blackened deathcore introductory title track that starts with a one-minute intro, you can expect a solid run of diverse melodic deathcore. Background female vocals can be found in the tracks "Darkness and Sorrow", "It's All We've Loved", and "Beyond the Killing End". The latter track is the 3-part 16-minute final epic, in a similar vein to the title suites of Shadow of Intent's Elegy and Lorna Shore's Pain Remains, though indexed as a full track. The second part is a 4-minute dark folk/ambient interlude, sandwiched between the two other 6-minute parts that have the usual melodic deathcore sound with symphonic black metal elements. The third part has less emphasis on deathcore, but it unleashes one final deathcore breakdown that, despite not being a single, can surpass that of Lorna Shore's "To the Hellfire", and a one-minute dark folk outro to end the album. Or at least the standard edition of the album. The edition released in Japan has a bonus track, a cover of Lorna Shore's "Immortal" released on YouTube the prior year, so popular upon upload, that's how they have gained a record label. The album sells well in a steady pace, and the aforementioned final breakdown and folk outro is often played at the end of concerts.

Lyrical themes: sadness (1, 5, 6, 7), death (2, 3, 4, 8, 9), loss (2, 4, 5, 6, 7), sorrow (3, 4, 8, 9), depression (3, 5, 7, 8)

1. Nocturnal Solitude (2:53, dark folk, deathcore, symphonic black metal)

2. Cut Up Alone (4:42, deathcore, melodic death metal)

3. Darkness and Sorrow (3:25, deathcore, gothic metal, melodic death metal)

4. Dead Tomorrow After Living Today (6:15, deathcore, melodic death metal, technical death metal)

5. Coma Eclipse (4:43, deathcore, folk metal, dark folk)

6. The Blackened Path of Silence (4:13, deathcore, melodic death metal)

7. Distant Calling (5:27, deathcore, melodic death metal, gothic metal)

8. It's All We've Loved (5:27, deathcore, gothic metal)

9. Beyond the Killing End (16:07, deathcore, melodic death metal, symphonic black metal, dark folk, dark ambient)

I. The Dwelling of Death (deathcore, melodic death metal, symphonic black metal)

II. Sun Without a New Year (dark folk, dark ambient)

III. It Ends Forever (melodic death metal, symphonic black metal, deathcore, dark folk)

10. Immortal (Lorna Shore cover) (Japanese edition bonus track) (6:48, deathcore, symphonic black metal, technical death metal)

I've added a Hall of Judgement entry to have the release added to The Gateway under Alternative Metal first as we can't remove it from The Infinite until it has another clan.

I don't think it's so much "warping" as it is metal fanboy pretentiousness, you know overstrictness to what real metal is, and then (potentially hypocritically) adding Deep Purple while the "poser" band Avenged Sevenfold is left out to rot in the hot sun.  The website seems to have it out for a lot of metalcore, but from what I've noticed it seems to be towards some more popular bands.

And yes, some hair metal albums are indeed true metal, notably Motley Crue and Dokken, but let's be honest: there are quite a few people who still confuse it with real metal.  Apparently, Poison is metal... Apparently...

I can't blame anyone for thinking hair metal or glam metal is metal. Why else would it contain the word metal in it!? Stupid, dumb genre names... (grumble, grumble)... don't get me started on U.S. Power Metal which apparently isn't Power Metal. It would be surprising if people weren't confused!

My feelings on this one are the same as I detailed in the GnR thread. I don't think Deep Purple (or Budgie for that matter) should qualify as metal.

Let's see what everyone else thinks though. I've posted this nomination in the Hall of Judgement.

https://metal.academy/hall/394

Guns 'n' Roses certainly have a heavy sound in comparison to most other rock music (as well as some of the lighter heavy metal releases to be fair) but the instrumental techniques utilized are still drawn from rock rather than metal in my opinion (i.e. a bluesy feel, open-string riffs, pentatonic licks, 4x4 rock beats, no use of double-kick, minimal use of palm-muted down-strokes, a groovier edge to their riffs & rhythms that has you tapping your foot rather than banging your head, etc.). Scorpions have a few metal tracks here & there but for the most part sit much more comfortably under the hard rock tag too in my experience (which amounts to their run of six albums from 1976 through to 1984). The only Scorpions album I've heard that's worthy of a metal tag is "Blackout" which, to my ears at least, contains a mixture of hard rock & heavy metal songs.

Let's see what others think though as I've just posted this nomination in the Hall of Judgement.

I did the best I could with this at the time, but I agree it's not ideal (particularly with long lists). I'll revisit with my developer at some point and see if there's a better way of doing it.

Being heavy isn't the sole deciding factor in whether a band are metal or not though in my opinion. You either play metal riffs or you don't. You can be heavy as fuck but if your sound is still rooted in blues-based rock riff structures then you're not a metal band as far as I'm concerned.

There's a lot of doom metal out there that doesn't have riffs.  Plus, a riff is defined as a repeated sequence of chords, which practiaclyly makes up that album.  What's your definition of a "metal riff" in this instance?

Lots of Slowcore. I find the less folky end of the genre to basically be Doom Rock. Wider Than the Sky by 40 Watt Sun is a great example, as are Low's first few albums. Codeine are this taken to the extreme, being incredibly heavy for a non-metal band. 

Dark/Depressive/Atmospheric Alternative Rock Albums like Alternative 4 by Anathema, or some mid-career Katatonia (Last Fair Deal Gone Down most of all) .

Some of the darker, more depressive Shoegaze bands creep into this territory occasionally (Nowehre by Ride, or My Bloody Valentine or Slowdive at their most depressive) 

Thanks guys.  I'll check them out.

As long as it's clearly stated, I'm not going to be pedantic about how or where. I understand that including the text in the image itself might be too intrusive. In the description if there is one, or as a directly associated comment etc. is fine.

Thanks for explaining.  Btw, I've got the outline for the first pic half done.  I'm gonna do one for each clan first in order of their appearance on the clans section of MA, so the first to get a poster is The Fallen.

I'm sure the genre is not for all metalheads, but I'm certainly attracted to it, if only as background music. Thanks for the recommendations, as I haven't delved into it as much as I probably should have. Just listening to Old Sorcery now.

Lemme know what you think when/if you feel like you've got a good amount of them down.

I know people are divisive as to what this genre entails, but the Metal Church debut fits the bill.  It's more apparent in the second side than the first, but the songs thrash with a lot of melody and energy, and feature the same attitude as typical speed metal.  Metal Church's debut is reelatively viewed by the metal community as a hard album to define because it flows so consistently through heavy, power, USPM, speed and thrash metal.  But this speed attitude is way to apparent to ignore, and it's a shame that here on Metal Academy it's only classified as a heavy metal album.

Well this sucks.  I've been so busy the last four days that I didn't even notice two major editing errors on the book cover.  The background under the dragon's leg and arm are not there, and Nula's wing is improperly shaded due to a Gimp problem.  Fixed now.

Didn't think I'd win this.  Still, I got the message and discussion out, and that's good enough for me.

I just posted a bout how two Metallica albums should also have the heavy metal tag and nobody bugs me about it.  I might've committed the worst sin possible here, so don't worry about looking like a fool 

However, the fact that it has 9 votes and is still active says I'm not alone.

It would be cool to see pages for albums on the list challenges have a small section denoting which list it's on, specifically above or below the user lists section.

Well, I'll keep trying to raise awareness of the site.  I told a coworker about this place, and he was a little curious.  Thankfully he's a metalcore fan.  In the meantime, let's simply discuss current list progress.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a plea to include demos.  The first music site I joined wouldn't allow EP's or bootlegs.  But this makes for a decent discussion since there are so many.

I'm talking about albums that take you into new worlds visually and audibly, albums that do things to you that other albums can't do.

The first thing that comes to mind right now is Hallucinogen by Blut Aus Nord for its extremely psychedelic behavior, as well as anything by Oranssi Pazuzu.

Yeah, that's pretty fuckin' punk.

Alright I'm wrong - Hell III is heavier.

One of my all-time favourites right there.

I've added "Aenima", "Lateralus" & "10,000 Days" to the Hall of Judgement.

For the record, people should feel free to submit as many releases for judgement as they feel like as long as they feel they're legitimately mistagged.

I figured the answer would be something along those lines.

This nomination has now been posted in the Hall of Judgement.