Can we add a "symphonic power metal" subgenre?

I remember a discussion about the inclusion of deathgrind and filing it under grindcore, and was hoping we could add it since it's a tag I've seen passed around multiple music / metal websites like Metallum, Last.fm, Metalstorm and even in common forum usage on RYM.  Since we already have a couple of our own genres that aren't included in RYM's database:  medieval folk metal and symphonic death metal, and this genre fits only Guardians genres, we could potentially file it as a subgenre of power metal until further notice?

I understand a problem would be tagging all the right power metal albums for the job, and it may even take a while.  So if it's a big job I'm willing to put a pin in this, if not permanently, if it's too big of a job.  And of course, I don't need this immediately as I'm still waiting for those custom challenge lists I made for the Revolution and Sphere to be looked into, which I feel is more important if considered.

It would be nice to have symphonic power metal here, but I personally think just having both power metal and symphonic metal in a release is enough.

One thing I forgot to mention is that we have symphonic black metal and symphonic death metal. I think it would feel right if that subgenre were also included in the more appropriate clan.

I remember a discussion about the inclusion of deathgrind and filing it under grindcore, and was hoping we could add it since it's a tag I've seen passed around multiple music / metal websites like Metallum, Last.fm, Metalstorm and even in common forum usage on RYM.

The discussion around deathgrind was about whether we could remove it as it serves no real purpose given that you can already add a release to both death metal & grindcore but can only have deathgrind as a subgenre of one genre which annoys me. We're still looking at that & may well go that way in the future. I'm certainly pushing for it.

Since we already have a couple of our own genres that aren't included in RYM's database:  medieval folk metal and symphonic death metal, and this genre fits only Guardians genres, we could potentially file it as a subgenre of power metal until further notice?

For the record, RYM does have medieval folk metal. It's just had its name changed to "Mittelalter-Metal" i.e. medieval metal. The symphonic death metal subgenre was specifically added here to remove bands like Septicflesh & Fleshgod Apocalypse from The Guardians clan where they clearly had no right to be. The Symphonic Metal genre was always intended to cover a sound that featured predominantly clean vocals & melodic instrumentation but we had people adding death metal tracks to The Guardians playlists or selecting death metal releases as feature releases so we chose to clear things up for everyone. The symphonic black metal subgenre was already in place from the beginning of the site.

One thing I forgot to mention is that we have symphonic black metal and symphonic death metal. I think it would feel right if that subgenre were also included in the more appropriate clan.

See, those subgenres are actually required for the reasons listed above & are serving their purpose well. When we look for justification for adding new subgenres we always ask ourselves three questions:

1. Is the sound easily identifiable & distinct from the main genre? Epic doom metal & traditional doom metal are examples of potential subgenres that we've elected not to go with thus far because they're really not all that different from conventional doom metal & it's often quite difficult to identify which of the three a release should rightfully sit under with many releases having two or even three of those tags associated with them. We felt it was simpler to just lump them under the one tag.

2. Are there people that will hate/love the new subgenre but who feel the opposite about the main genre which gives us a reason to differentiate the two from each other in release searches & charts? We can see that requirement very clearly with the symphonic black metal subgenre for example as I generally struggle with any symphonic black metal release which wasn't created by an artist that rhymes with Schemperor but I absolutely adore conventional black metal.

3. Can we easily identify which release to add to the subgenre as opposed to the main genre?

In relation to question one, I was always under the impression that a symphonic component was quite common with (if not a defining characteristic of) European power metal & if you don't have a tolerance for that sort of thing then you're better off sticking to the US variety. In fact, the RYM definition of Power Metal says "Plenty of acts also employ synths and strings, often overlapping with Symphonic Metal" which is probably the reason that they haven't gone down the path of adding a Symphonic Power Metal subgenre i.e. because there's already an expectation of symphonics in your average power metal release.

In relation to question two, are there polarized power metal fans who only like the more overtly symphonic brand of power metal & have no time for the exponents that are more subtle with their use of symphonics? How about the reverse?

And finally, are you suggesting that we would simply add any release that has both a power metal & a symphonic metal primary on RYM to the symphonic power metal subgenre? Is that the way you'd suggest we identify appropriate releases? If so, will that cover all of the release you have in mind or are not all of them tagged that way given that there's an element of expectation around power metal releases containing symphonics?

OK, to answer these questions.

1. YES.  There is a vast difference between a typically symphonic band like Therion and a symphonic power metal band like Rhapsody.  The vast majority of symphonic power metal is capitalizing off of the influential sound of Emerald Sword for the most part.  They can also be highly differentiated from other standard power acts like Helloween, Scanner, Gamma Ray, Running Wild, Iron Savior, etc.  Basically, it's all about that fantasy aesthetic.  Most symphonic metal is largely focused on taking the epic sound of movies and applying it to metal, regardless of things like high-energy melodies and guitar driven solos.  Take Therion, later-stage Nightwish, Lacrimosa, and even many Tristania songs.  These are songs focused more on the pretty or even dramatic atmospheres of cinema, regardless of whatever genres may come along, such as Tristania's gothic sound or Arcturus's avant-garde compositions.  Bands like Rhapsody combine it with the compositional traits, extreme riffage and catchy melodies of power metal constantly.  Hell, many of these songs are blatantly ripping off Emerald Sword.

2. The way I see it, symphonics are applied to different metals depending on the instrumentation that's necessary.  For example, bands like Emperor and Summoning use the fantasy LOTR influence in less hyperactive ways like Rhapsody and Twilight Force due, largely because the genre isn't quite as reliant on high-energy melody as much as it is on the border between dark aesthetics and epica.  There weren't a lot of violins or trumpets in the first two Emperor albums, and many of Summoning's songs are more reliant on the same type of dungeon synth electronics as Emperor's first two albums.  Now to me, "symphonic death metal" represents a bit of a middle point between the darker aesthetics of symphonic black and the high energy of symphonic power, and because there's less of it, there doesn't seem to be as defined of a ruleset beyond "death metal with symphonic instruments."

This is not to say there won't ever be albums that fit both symphonic metal and symphonic black / death / power metal, as that's entirely possible.  The way I'd handle that is simply to see how often one genre outweighs the other unless both the original format and the influenced sub-brand are balanced out perfectly.

3. Any metalhead worth his salt could identify the differences between symphonic power metal and traditional power metal.  I've seen these discussions all over the place.  There will always be similarities between a parent and the child, but it's no different than identifying blues from blues rocks.  Of course, there may end up being some debate between power metal albums that occasionally steer into the border, such as the mid-to-late-90's albums of Blind Guardian.  So I usually determine this by how much the orchestral aspects are shoved in yo' face.  A band like Rhapsody is blatant, but a band like Blind Guardian is a bit too diverse to really say beyond their 2010's albums.  It's also vital not to get either confused with neoclassical metal.

4. If it doesn't have to be RYM, we can simply handle any albums that are tagged as both here.  The idea is that it's a hybrid of two connected and often combined genres in the same clan, then simply using either RYM or Metal Academy's own database would keep things simple, and any questionable releases could simply be put in a Hall. But once again, there's a level of subjectivity there.  The only way I can see us doing it is if we take any releases tagged as both here and give them the tag.  The only problem with putting this into play is Metal Academy's current limitation in the Releases search of not being able to filter albums with both albums from albums with only one.

Rex, it's clear that you think that symphonic power metal is easily differentiated from traditional power metal & I have no reason to doubt that from my experience but I still haven't read anything that tells me why we NEED to differentiate them in the database. What will it accomplish at the end of the day? Your classic Swedish death metal sound is very easy to differentiate from Florida death metal most of the time but they're both ultimately still death metal & draw the same audience. Does symphonic power metal really draw a different audience to traditional power metal? I wouldn't have thought so personally but I'm open to everyone's thoughts on this.

And of course, I don't need this immediately as I'm still waiting for those custom challenge lists I made for the Revolution and Sphere to be looked into, which I feel is more important if considered.

We're not considering changing our Clan Challenges any time soon as they serve their purpose well & aren't used very regularly anyway. If we ever decide to revisit that position then we'll keep your ideas in mind.

Well based on past metal discussions and reviews I've read over the years, I find there are those who avoid "fantasy metal" as they like to slur symphonic power metal with and listen to "more serious" power metal like Scanner, and there are those who easily prefer the symphonic sound more because they're fantasy nerds.  I think once we get enough Guardians talking things over here, this discussion will in fact come up later.

Of course, this is all based on my experiences with other power metal fans on more active websites, and I can't speak for everyone else's experiences.  Also, I have a habit of trying to get these little details out of the way as soon as possible on the chance that it's necessary, or just to keep things organized, which is a habit stemming from my early days editing wikias / fandoms.  Or maybe I'm just Huey Ducking it and trying to get it as accurate as possible because I'm also the type who differs "traditional power metal" from "melodic power metal."  Having said that, I have more than enough awareness to know that THAT discussion would be overdoing it.

...but I still haven't read anything that tells me why we NEED to differentiate them in the database.

I believe the discussion boils down to this at the moment. It seems like we all agree that "Symphonic Power Metal" is a valid term that gets thrown around in discussions, but I think that the way that we have it currently with a "Symphonic Metal" tag and a "Power Metal" tag is a pretty catch-all setup. Examples that were brought up: 

• Therion - Theli, Vovin, and Secret of the Runes are all labeled Symphonic Metal primary with currently no subgenres, but probably could gain a Progressive or Death Metal one if people voted. No Power Metal, checks out. 
• Rhapsody - Dual Symphonic Metal and Power Metal primary genres. Checks out. 
• Nightwish - Early Nightwish has dual Symphonic/Power Metal primaries. Checks out. Starting at Imaginaerum it changes to a Symphonic primary and loses the Power Metal, checks out due to the even higher emphasis on orchestration. 
• Lacrimosa - I'm not familiar with this band but after putting on Echos for a bit it has a Symphonic primary and no Power Metal. Checks out. 
• Tristania - I'm not familiar with this band either but after listening to a little bit of Beyond the Veil I could see adding a Symphonic Metal primary alongside the Gothic Metal primary and maybe a Black Metal secondary? So it would be tagged as Symphonic Metal with no Power Metal, checks out.
• All of the bands listed as "Traditional Power Metal Bands" do not have the Symphonic Metal tag on them. Checks out. 

The point I'm trying to make is that apart from a few very niche exceptions, albums that are currently labeled as having Symphonic Metal and Power Metal primaries are what you are describing as Symphonic Power Metal. If the Symphonic Power Metal change were implemented, each album with both Symphonic and Power Metal primaries would gain this primary instead and lose the other two primaries. I could see this being an advantageous change for chart reasons so that Twilight Force wouldn't go toe-to-toe with Therion for Symphonic Metal, but they're still different forms of Symphonic Metal. While it might be nice to compare all your high-fantasy Rhapsody rip-offs under one tag, I think tagging that use of Symphonic Metal with a more traditional Tristania approach is still valid and has merit. Plus, the MA charts are only filterable by Clan at the moment, not genre.

I can agree with the point to want to differentiate old Nightwish (Once, Oceanborn) from Rhapsody, but I'm in the camp of people using their own reasoning from two broader primary genres rather than differentiating further.