Tymell's Forum Replies

Heretical as it might be to some, I actually agree with this.

To me, Motörhead always felt like hard rock with as much of a punk element as a metal one, at least in the earlier works (and to some degree even on the later ones).

I agree with the removal of thrash, I don't think this one has enough of it...but I don't agree with The Pit removal, as I think of Point Blank as a mix of industrial and groove.

It's an album rather than a band, but I remember that the soundtrack from Castlevania: Symphony of the Night stood out to me as one of the most metal-sounding things I'd heard that wasn't actually metal. Felt very strongly inspired by metal's whole approach, style and vibe.

My own take is that it depends on whether you count it as a genre or not. A genre isn't restricted by location: there's nothing preventing a band in any country other than Germany from sounding just like Rammstein or the like. But there are also attributes of music beyond the genre (like the band's location itself), and if NDH is one of those, then it could be restricted to German bands only.

So if NDH is an actual genre, it isn't restricted to one location. If it isn't, then it can be.

Oh also, side-point: that Twitter poll could definitely do with rephrasing: it asks "Should NDH be applied to a Swedish band or only German bands? Yes or no?", so it's not clear what we're saying "yes" or "no" to.

We both feel that RYM's growing subgenre list has gotten out of hand recently & we won't be following them blindly.

Glad to hear it. I love RYM, but I've never liked their tendency to endlessly subdivide genres and create new tags for pretty much any tiny handful of bands that sound slightly different to others.

With you on this one: there's a strong thrash influence present, but to me it feels like a stoner metal piece with as much influence from punk as from thrash.

For whatever it's worth, my feeling is that "post-metal" is its own thing, and that "atmospheric sludge metal" is a largely redundant term, as a specific subgenre anyway.

I tend to view it similarly to post-thrash metal: initially there was a style for which that fit, but over time it developed into its own thing, "groove metal", and while there were still obviously thrash roots throughout the genre, it couldn't really be seen as a simple branch of thrash anymore.

Hi,

I'd like to request the following be added please:

Chalice (FIN)
Theragon (SPAIN)
Burning Point

Also the new albums from Beast in Black (Dark Connection) and Running Wild (Blood on Blood).

Thanks!

Hi,

I'd like to request the following be added please:

Hypervolume (not on RYM, but can be found on MA here: https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Hypervolume/3540478639 )
Mourners
Grief Collector
Cavern Deep
Switchblade Jesus
Miasma Theory (another not on RYM, but on MA: https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Miasma_Theory/3540487152 )
Ember Sun
Hex A.D.

Thanks!

Hi,

I'd like to request the following to be added:

Cognos
Circle of Sighs (generally they seem to classed as doom metal, though personally I'd argue that their latest album is much closer to avant-garde/progressive metal than doom, but maybe that's just me)

Thanks!

Hi,

I'd like to request the following:

Apocalyptic Fear
AEpoch
Ashen (AUS)

And Kaunis Kuolematon's 2020 album, Syttyköön toinen aurinko.

Thanks!

Hi,

I'd like to request Video Nasty (CAN) be added.

Thanks!

Just a minor thing, but it might be nice if the hall voting buttons came up with some sort of "Are you sure?" pop-up to confirm, just since your votes in them can't (as far as I'm aware) be undone once cast. I haven't had it happen to me, but I could see someone accidentally clicking the wrong option.

I can definitely see some merit to the idea: I find that while there isn't really a single true "Extreme metal" on its own, when you take certain broader extreme metal styles and start to apply other elements to them, it can often blur the lines between those genre distinctions.

A lot of "progressive extreme metal" types often seem to incorporate elements of death, black, doom, etc. Same with death 'n' roll types sometimes too: I tend to prefer the term "rot 'n' roll" since these releases often depart quite heavily from actual "death metal", and oftentimes mix in elements of death and black in some combination (and also because I just think "rot 'n' roll" sounds cool).

For whatever it's worth, my "headcanon" is that there are some "core" genres (thrash, power, death, etc) and then there are those that are often applied alongside them as variations: progressive metal, avant-garde metal, alternative metal. These are often added like additional prefixes to the "core" styles (e.g. progressive death metal, avant-garde black metal, etc), and while "pure" forms of them certainly exist, they often seem to exhibit a greater degree of sonic variation than others: two thrash metal bands probably aren't going to sound -that- wildly different, but two alternative metal bands might sound totally different in many ways, even if they still have enough in common to fit into the genre as a whole. Basically, those genres always feel a bit more loosely defined to me, more about overarching approach and structure than specific elements of their sound.

Just my way of thinking on it though.

As others say, the name is certainly an issue. I get where it stems from, but it is often misleading, as many might be inclined to label any band with Viking lyrics themes as viking metal, or likewise to dismiss a band as such because they don't involve Vikings. It being a comparatively small genre doesn't help.

I myself was once of the opinion that it wasn't really big/distinct enough to warrant its own genre tag, but I've come around since (mostly through listening to a lot of Bathory and some others). Personally, I tend to label it "epic metal", just for my own purposes. I get that that also isn't a perfectly clear term by any means, I just feel it sums up the core of the sound, for me anyway.

Oof, come on man, it was hard enough to narrow it down to three!

If I really had to...probably The Pit. Thrash just speaks to me in a way little else does, when it's done right it ignites that fire in me that made me fall in love with metal in the first place.

Guardians would be a damn close second though.

I recently listened to this one for the Guardians challenge, and yeah, I could see it. It definitely sounded markedly different from its contemporaries.

I believe on that note I've just finished my first clan challenge, that same one: the 1st era for heavy metal. Took me longer than I hoped, but I'm glad I got it done! There were some I re-evaluated one way or the other, others I gave a proper listen to for the first time, and some I just reminded myself of why I love them so.

Overall, my personal ranking of them would be:

1.) Dio - Holy Diver (5.0)
2.) Rainbow - Rising (5.0)
3.) Angel Witch - Angel Witch (4.5)
4.) Black Sabbath - Paranoid (4.5)
5.) Iron Maiden - Powerslave (4.0)
6.) Judas Priest - Sad Wings of Destiny (4.0)
7.) Mercyful Fate - Don't Break the Oath (4.0)
8.) Riot - Fire Down Under (4.0)
9.) Manowar - Hail to England (4.0)
10.) Metal Church - Metal Church (4.0)
11.) Manilla Road - Crystal Logic (4.0)
12.) Saxon - Strong Arm of the Law (4.0)
13.) Motörhead - Ace of Spades (3.5)
14.) Diamond Head - Lightning to the Nations (3.5)
15.) Running Wild - Gates to Purgatory (3.5)
16.) Satan - Court in the Act (3.5)
17.) Omen - Battle Cry (3.5)
18.) Ozzy Osbourne - Blizzard of Ozz (3.0)
19.) Scorpions - Taken By Force (3.0)
20.) W.A.S.P. - W.A.S.P. (3.0)
21.) Accept - Restless and Wild (3.0)
22.) Queensryche - The Warning (3.0)
23.) Thin Lizzy - Thunder & Lightning (3.0)
24.) Cirith Ungol - King of the Dead (3.0)
25.) Jag Panzer - Ample Destruction (2.5)

Next up I'm hoping to tackle the 80s thrash metal list for The Pit. Should be an interesting one, there are a bunch in there I haven't listened to in a good while, and some I definitely have some heretical takes on...

In general I feel the 90s is too often maligned from a heavy metal perspective. I think it was a decade of a lot of branching out and expanding of the genre. The 80s may have produced a lot of the early genre-defining classics, but the 90s saw the whole genre grow and develop into much more.

My favourites of 1993 in particular:

Savatage - Edge of Thorns
Motörhead - Bastards
Shotgun Messiah - Violent New Breed
Mercyful Fate - In the Shadows
Type O Negative - Bloody Kisses
Die Krupps - II: The Final Option
Paradise Lost - Icon
Sepultura - Chaos A.D.
My Dying Bride - Turn Loose the Swans
Carcass - Heartwork

Such an interesting list Tymell. Your refusal to have your opinions guided by the masses if a trait that I've always respected.

Ha, thanks Daniel, much appreciated! A nice way of putting "you like some weird shit, man".

For me, probably:

1.) Jerry Cantrell - Degradation Trip Volumes 1 & 2

2.) Alice in Chains - Black Gives Way to Blue

3.) Psychostick - Do

4.) Waltari - Big Bang

5.) Devin Townsend - Addicted

6.) Waltari - Space Avenue

7.) Disturbed - Indestructible

8.) Dub War - Pain

9.) System of a Down - System of a Down

10.) Stam1na - Uudet Kymmenen Käskyä

Yeah, this and certain other tracks from their 80s output threw me for a loop back in the day. I heard these very mainstream offerings when I was young without any knowledge of who the band was. Years later I got into Priest through their earlier works first and foremost (Sad Wings, Sin After Sin, Stained Class), then I discovered those other songs were the same band and couldn't believe it.

To this day I find their post-Stained output a lot more of a mixed bag than what came before, too often sounding like it's sacrificing some of the earlier style in favour of much more 80s US mainstream appeal.

Cheers Ben, I'll keep this in mind for any future occurrences.

My apologies, I had no intention of high-jacking, just enjoying a discussion. But I have a tendency to ramble on such topics.

Back more on target, whatever label it's given, Epicus Doomicus is a phenomenal album, probably (along with their much later King of the Grey Islands) what got me into doom properly.

Honestly, if southern metal were added here, I'd put it forward for The Pit more than The Fallen. To me, it's always sounded like more of a descendant of groove metal than anything doom-related. I think the muddied waters there comes more from the frequent overlap with stoner and sludge metal, but those themselves are often steps away from the core "doom metal" approach (sludge metal, for example, mixes doom with more hardcore influences, and those influences also appear as a common feature of groove metal).

It's a more general point (and more of me just rambling), but when I'm considering whether I think a genre is really needed, it comes down to 2 questions for me: is this style sufficiently different to existing tags to need something of its own, and are there enough bands/releases involved?

If there are lots of bands doing it but it isn't that distinct, then the existing tag will do, as there has to be some degree of variety within every genre. As with the aforementioned teutonic thrash: there's obviously a somewhat distinct sound to a lot of German thrash, it has a rougher, more abrasive texture, but it isn't so different that it needs its own tag. Contrast with something like death metal, which may have started out as a more extreme style of thrash, but eventually evolved to the point where labelling it as "thrash metal" clearly wasn't sufficient.

If there is something distinct, but it's just one or two bands doing it, then that can be put down as an outlier, and we don't need separate tags for all of those. Volbeat's first few albums, for example: most often they'll get labelled as either "heavy metal", "groove metal" or "alternative metal", but honestly, none of those feel right. In truth, the most appropriate would be something new like "Metalbilly" or some such, but because it's just one band doing it, we don't need a new tag for it.

Again though, just my thoughts on it!

Personally, while I enjoy the use and discussion of subgenres, I'm a bit of a genre minimalist: I feel genres will always have some degree of variety within them, that distinct divisions of subgenres should only be added where truly needed, and that excessive subdivision can just dilute their usefulness and makes things more complex than they need to be.

This often brings me into disagreement with a lot of the genre tags on RYM (which is part of why I so rarely bother delving into the genre queue there any more), and I can't say I'm convinced on this one either. "Epic doom metal" just doesn't seem a sufficient departure from simple "Doom metal" to need its own tag IMO. And the inclusion of it as a subgenre of traditional doom metal is especially bizarre: if anything, it seems clear they should be alternatives (though of course not mutually exclusive, no genres truly are), not parent-child, as traditional doom is a style more rooted in classic heavy metal, while epic doom moves into more of a clear, grandiose identity of its own.

Anywho, for whatever my one voice is worth, I'd definitely not be in favour of bringing "Epic doom" over here as an actual genre tag. It might be a loose descriptor to use when talking about the wider doom genre, just like how I might talk about the details of teutonic thrash vs. US thrash, but that doesn't mean I think it warrants its own distinct tag.

But that's just me, and there are probably a dozen metal genre tags on RYM I don't think are really necessary.

Honestly, I really like Casualties of Cool, it feels like it has a great character to it, a very honest expression rather than trying overtly to "be" something, if that makes sense.

I'd also argue toilet humour can have a perfectly fine place in both metal and punk, even if some implementations might be better than others 

This might be a more general query, but while giving this album another listen to help me decide my vote on this submission, I felt I agreed with one part of it but not the other. I'd assume in this circumstance we should still vote "no", as I don't want the overall proposed change to take place, but there is at least one aspect I agree with.

Sweeeeet.

Hi,

I'd like to request two new releases added whenever possible: DevilDriver's Dealing With Demons I and Harlott's Detritus of the Final Age.

Cheers

Hi,

I'd like to request the following be added:

Hyperion (ITA)
Ecclesia (FRA)
Adamantis (USA)
Chalice (FIN) (their debut full-length, "Trembling Crown" isn't listed on RYM yet, though it can be seen on MA: https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Chalice/3540434628 )

Cheers

Hi,

I'd like to request the following be added:

Vacant Eyes (US)
Kaunis Kuolematon (FIN) (may also be suitable for the Horde)

Cheers

Hi,

I'd like to request the following to be added:

Pessimist (US)
The Last Reign (no RYM page, but they are on MA if that helps: https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/The_Last_Reign/3540416145 )
Countless Skies (UK)

Cheers

Speaking of potential new features, go check out the Gallery now. You can now look for the top rating covers that you haven't yet rated. 

That is a dangerous, dangerous button for me.

Ben, I think now that we have enough active members rating album covers, the momentum is enough for the 5-rating minimum to be necessary. So when you're next available, please add that limit!

While I agree with the general idea here, the only potential problem I can see is it may end up favouring the bigger, more popular albums (and their covers) over lesser ones. I suspect some (myself included) like to go to the gallery from time to time and look for new additions with a high score, which can help see some more obscure albums that other users love the covers of. If a 5 score minimum was implemented, we wouldn't see these lesser known albums in there.

While I'm no Sabbath expert... Tymell, based on the other lists in this thread, yours actually makes sense in the "top 10" order starting with the #1 song. Even an unordered list can come out as ordered!

Ha, you're right. I may have gone through the albums picking the 10 :p You can also see my album prefs pretty clearly there: I never really cared so much for Vol. 4 or Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (and I've never bothered listening to Never Say Die or Technical Ecstasy).

In no order, mine would be:

1. Black Sabbath
2. War Pigs
3. Paranoid
4. Iron Man
5. Hand of Doom
6. Children of the Grave
7. Solitude
8. Hole in the Sky
9. Megalomania
10. Symptom of the Universe

I'd like to request the following be added:

Lord Vigo
Elvira Madigan 
Forest Stream 
Borgo Pass (this might sadly be another without enough info, but I'll give it a go)
Jupiterian's new album, "Protosapien"

Just letting you know that I attempted to add Bleeding Eyes, but there's no information about genre for most of their releases. They seem to be listed as doom, stoner, sludge and even metalcore in different places, so we might have to wait for more activity on RYM (unless you want to listen to all their releases and make a judgement).Quoted Ben

No worries. I've only listened to their most recent, which was pretty solidly sludge/doom, but I couldn't speak for the rest.

I'd like to request Manzana (Finland) if they fit.

I'd like to request the following be added:

Valkeryon
Torian 
Triosphere 
Seven Kingdoms 
Shadow Host 
Nitefall 
Iron Kobra 
Kerion 
Hyperion 
Graveshadow 
Crosswind (including EP "Opposing Forces") 
Crystal Viper 
Double Diamond 
Dreamtone (noted on some releases as "Dreamtone & Iris Mavraki's Neverland")
Cauldron (CAN) 
Battlerage 
Booze Control 
Arachnes 
Almah 

I'd like to request the following be added:

Vore (USA)
Unhallowed (Austria)
One Man Army and the Undread Quartet 
Reptilian Death 
Sathanas 
Impiety 
Empyrean Sky 
Forlorn Path 
Disgusting Perversion 
Diskreet 
Broken Hope 
Asenblut 
Annotations of an Autopsy 

I'd like to request the following be added:

Oni (CAN)
Heart of Cygnus

I'd like to request the following be added:

Sombres Forets
King of Asgard 
From the Sunset, Forest and Grief 
Hammer Horde 
Cirkeln 
Crom (GER)
Ahnengrab 
Nokturnal Mortem / Graveland (they had a split release in 2016, "The Spirit Never Dies")

I'd like to request the following be added:

Immaculate
The Horde (from Illinois, USA)
Onslaught's new album, Generation Antichrist

I don't really have strong feelings on it at the moment myself (as I haven't listened to Into the Pandemonium in an age, and don't particularly care to again), but I agree that avant-garde metal in general is tricky. By its very nature, it can be a bit of a catch-all for experimental stuff, with two bands within the genre often not sounding especially alike beyond that approach of experimentation. As what is or isn't considered "experimental" may change over time, the avant-garde tag on older albums may feel odd by modern standards.

I think my inclination in general would be to judge by the current standards of a genre. Death metal and groove metal, for example, both evolved out of thrash metal, so early examples of them might have just been classified as thrash. But later, when those genres came into their own, those early releases might be re-classified in hindsight.

I also feel like we tend not to tag genres based on historical importance. Reign in Blood or Pleasure to Kill were undoubtedly influential in the emergence of death metal, and Iron Maiden were likewise an influence on what would become power metal, but we don't classify those releases/artists that way, even if we might mention it when discussing them or those genres.

Phew, finished rating all the album's I have rated. Now just a few more favourite covers (where I haven't actually listened to the album) to go. Will likely lead to more "bands to add" requests, sorry Ben :p

I've also noticed in my rating patterns that I'm significantly harsher in my cover ratings. I guess because I seek out albums I think I'll enjoy, so those ratings lean towards the positive, whereas covers I just take as I find them.

And another taste trend of mine I've noticed: I feel bands need to stop putting babies/children on their album covers. It never ends well.

Cheers Ben, I'm liking it! One thing I've noticed: for some reason my cover rating for "Motörhead - The World is Yours" isn't showing up in my cover ratings, even though it is rated. Everything else is there, just that one.

My suggestions are basically what you have there: I'd like to be able to see, at a glance, whether I've rated a cover, and also to be able to see a list/collection of album cover ratings (e.g. if I want to see which ones I've rated 5 or 0.5, for example).

Regarding accidentally rating the wrong thing, maybe the cover rating box could have some variant design, to make it visually stand out more? Or be placed elsewhere on the page?