Epicus Doomicus Metallicus

Candlemass' debut is 35 years old today. I don't know if it's mere coincidence or not, but RYM have recently accepted epic doom metal as a sub-sub-genre of traditional doom metal. A while ago we had quite a substantial debate about the necessity (or not as it turned out) of the traditional doom metal tag so now that RYM have doubled-down on it, does anybody think that epic doom metal is enough of a thing to have it's own genre?

I wouldn't say that I'm particularly knowledgeable about this topic however I've never heard anything on releases that are generally regarded as epic doom that left me feeling that they needed their own subgenre to be honest. If we take a look at what I said in my summary of "New Dark Age" a few months ago:

"Solstice are fairly hard to categorize in my opinion. Are they doom metal? Yeah, sometimes. Are they heavy metal? Well... yeah... they are at times too. But I'd suggest that their sound doesn't sit all that well under either banner as they're more up-tempo & melodic than you would usually expect from a doom metal band. There's an obvious NWOBHM influence about them with the twin-guitar harmonies of Iron Maiden providing plenty of inspiration but they also possess a down-tuned heaviness that simultaneously defies the heavy metal label. I guess that's why people came up with the epic doom tag but, despite the epic characteristics of some of this material, I don't really think it's necessary to be honest. The traditional doom metal tag was created to cover a heavy metal infused doom sound & I think it would have served the purpose just fine here too."

It's worth noting that I don't even like to label "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" as traditional doom metal if I'm being honest. It's true doom metal as far as I'm concerned. Possibly the very FIRST true doom metal release actually. Sure there's some classic heavy metal inspired material on there but not all that much in comparison to the doom component which is amongst the doomiest doom that anyone had heard to the time.

I'm certainly open to being proven wrong here though so perhaps you can school us all on this topic Sonny.

Two things for me to talk about here:

1. Since we're discussing anniversaries, here's another special album having its x5 anniversary today:

Happy 15th anniversary to this grand progressive metalcore concept album! Though that's just for the US release. The original Canadian release for the album was in the previous year, but I won't argue.

2. We discussed this in an earlier thread, but I don't mind sharing my opinion again here. Epic Doom Metal really is an actual doom metal subgenre. I wasn't sure RYM would ever feel like using that subgenre because of the overuse of the term "Epic" to describe other genres for some bands in websites such as the Metal Archives (for example; "Bal-Sagoth = Symphonic/Epic Black Metal", "Battlelore = Epic Symphonic Metal", "Dethlehem = Epic Melodic Death Metal", "Ensiferum = Epic Folk Metal", "Manilla Road = Epic Heavy/Power Metal"). Yeah, overly adding the word "Epic" to genres for bands that are already epic enough can make that word a little less...epic. I'm glad that RYM now acknowledges Epic Doom Metal, but it's a subgenre for Traditional Doom Metal, a label some of us find redundant. I'm fine with Epic Doom Metal being a valid subgenre here, but Traditional Doom Metal releases should just be part of the conventional Doom Metal genre...

Personally, while I enjoy the use and discussion of subgenres, I'm a bit of a genre minimalist: I feel genres will always have some degree of variety within them, that distinct divisions of subgenres should only be added where truly needed, and that excessive subdivision can just dilute their usefulness and makes things more complex than they need to be.

This often brings me into disagreement with a lot of the genre tags on RYM (which is part of why I so rarely bother delving into the genre queue there any more), and I can't say I'm convinced on this one either. "Epic doom metal" just doesn't seem a sufficient departure from simple "Doom metal" to need its own tag IMO. And the inclusion of it as a subgenre of traditional doom metal is especially bizarre: if anything, it seems clear they should be alternatives (though of course not mutually exclusive, no genres truly are), not parent-child, as traditional doom is a style more rooted in classic heavy metal, while epic doom moves into more of a clear, grandiose identity of its own.

Anywho, for whatever my one voice is worth, I'd definitely not be in favour of bringing "Epic doom" over here as an actual genre tag. It might be a loose descriptor to use when talking about the wider doom genre, just like how I might talk about the details of teutonic thrash vs. US thrash, but that doesn't mean I think it warrants its own distinct tag.

But that's just me, and there are probably a dozen metal genre tags on RYM I don't think are really necessary.

I've made no secret that I don't really like the Traditional Doom Metal descriptor, as much for the name as for the purpose.

If we go on a relevant tangent, Possessed's Seven Churches is more often than not cited as the first Death Metal album, but it contains a fair amount of it's natural predecessor, being Thrash Metal. Should we call Seven Churches a Traditional Death Metal album? Should all Death / Thrash hybrid albums be called Traditional Death Metal? No-one has ever suggested it, because there's absolutely nothing wrong with those releases being labelled both Death Metal and Thrash Metal.

Applying the above logic to Doom Metal, I see no point in labelling releases that are a mixture of Doom Metal and Heavy Metal as Traditional Doom Metal, when they could just be labelled Doom Metal and Heavy Metal.

I tend more towards Tymell's approach of not creating multitudes of subgenres when they're not particularly needed. I always come back to the same question when thinking about genres, which is "would people that really like a particular genre NOT like a particular style of it". This is obviously just my way of thinking of it, but I have to question what genres are for if not for allowing people to discover music that they will likely enjoy.

* Would a significant percentage of people that really like Death Metal NOT like what we know as Melodic Death Metal? The answer is definitely yes, so a subgenre makes sense.

* Would a significant percentage of people that really like Doom Metal NOT like what we know as Funeral Doom Metal? The answer is definitely yes, so a subgenre makes sense.

* Would a significant percentage of people that really like Doom Metal NOT like what we're calling Epic Doom Metal? I don't think the answer is yes, particularly if you're going to throw bands like Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus and Solstice into the mix. To me they epitomise what Doom Metal is.

To be clear though, this is just my opinion, and decisions around anything at Metal Academy will always be a communal process. If the community wants loads of subgenres, expanding the metal tree into increasingly small compartments, then it's all possible. Just expect some healthy challenges. 

1985 and 1986 were the first two years of death metal with the earlier releases of Possessed, Sepultura, and Messiah. However, they also have the thrash metal tag, and while there's nothing wrong with death/thrash, I personally think that if a genre's "traditional" or "standard", it means it stands out as truly that genre without any other genre tying in. In that sense, Death's Scream Bloody Gore should be the starting point for traditional death metal because it's the first album to be pure thrash-less death metal.

Subgenres make a lot of sense because then it’s easier for people to listen to a descendant of a main genre they generally avoid, like how I used to listen to melodeath while avoiding the standard death metal, and how I listen to doom metal while avoiding funeral doom. Indeed, one of the problems with the Epic Doom Metal label is, bands with that tag (Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus, and Solstice) are much closer to standard doom metal. While the only difference is the addition of classical-sounding keyboards, more operatic singing, and fantasy lyrics to add that "epic" sound, the traditional doom sound is still dominant. In my opinion, those "epic" additions really have to be emphasized in balance with the doom sound. Here are a few gothic/death-doom songs that demonstrate what I'm talking about and hopefully my idea would catch on:

Most of you seem to echo my own thoughts that what is being proposed as epic doom metal does not constitute a significant enough departure from standard doom to justify a whole new genre tag. I think epic as more of of a descriptor than a genre, something RYM already had, thus rendering the genre tag even more redundant. I'm certainly not in favour of including it here, I merely brought it up to engender a discussion and to mark an anniversary milestone of one of my favourite albums!

Subgenres make a lot of sense because then it’s easier for people to listen to a descendant of a main genre they generally avoid, like how I used to listen to melodeath while avoiding the standard death metal, and how I listen to doom metal while avoiding funeral doom. Indeed, one of the problems with the Epic Doom Metal label is, bands with that tag (Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus, and Solstice) are much closer to standard doom metal. While the only difference is the addition of classical-sounding keyboards, more operatic singing, and fantasy lyrics to add that "epic" sound, the traditional doom sound is still dominant. In my opinion, those "epic" additions really have to be emphasized in balance with the doom sound. Here are a few gothic/death-doom songs that demonstrate what I'm talking about and hopefully my idea would catch on:

No-one's suggesting that subgenres aren't worth having. If you read my post again you'll see that I also think there should be Funeral Doom Metal and Melodic Death Metal subgenres, because a fair portion of Doom Metal and Death Metal fans will not like those styles (and vice versa). So we agree on those! 

* Would a significant percentage of people that really like Doom Metal NOT like what we're calling Epic Doom Metal? I don't think the answer is yes, particularly if you're going to throw bands like Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus and Solstice into the mix. To me they epitomise what Doom Metal is.

I think Trad Doom and Epic Doom have quite a different sound from true/modern Doom, and I will say that even though Doom (including Death Doom and Funeral Doom) is my favorite collection of metal subgenres, Trad Doom tends to bore me to tears, and Epic doesn't fare much better. There's a huge difference in the style of music - Trad and Epic Doom are focused on groovy riffs that happen to be slow, occasionally being mournful but just as often not, and true Doom, Death Doom and Funeral Doom utilize a slow speed to emphasize a sense of despair or melancholy, focusing on mood and atmosphere, always carrying a negative tone to them. The purpose of the music is totally different. I don't much enjoy slow Heavy Metal - I enjoy dark, moody, atmospheric music.

In the end, I don't care about adding more subgenres, they really don't matter to me. But Trad Doom is very different from modern Doom, and Epic Doom is definitely Trad Doom, though I do believe crossover with Epic into True is more common that in pure Trad (such as Solitude Aeturnus, who tend to have some quite melodic, melancholic Epic Doom).

It's a more general point (and more of me just rambling), but when I'm considering whether I think a genre is really needed, it comes down to 2 questions for me: is this style sufficiently different to existing tags to need something of its own, and are there enough bands/releases involved?

If there are lots of bands doing it but it isn't that distinct, then the existing tag will do, as there has to be some degree of variety within every genre. As with the aforementioned teutonic thrash: there's obviously a somewhat distinct sound to a lot of German thrash, it has a rougher, more abrasive texture, but it isn't so different that it needs its own tag. Contrast with something like death metal, which may have started out as a more extreme style of thrash, but eventually evolved to the point where labelling it as "thrash metal" clearly wasn't sufficient.

If there is something distinct, but it's just one or two bands doing it, then that can be put down as an outlier, and we don't need separate tags for all of those. Volbeat's first few albums, for example: most often they'll get labelled as either "heavy metal", "groove metal" or "alternative metal", but honestly, none of those feel right. In truth, the most appropriate would be something new like "Metalbilly" or some such, but because it's just one band doing it, we don't need a new tag for it.

Again though, just my thoughts on it!

Currently there are 232 primarily voted Epic Doom releases in RYM, so I see some potential for the genre to appear in Metal Academy.

I've listened to a couple Volbeat tracks before (via music videos on TV), and with the "Metalbilly" parts of their sound, I'm genuinely surprised that nobody has added the Southern Metal tag to them, not even secondarily! Even though the band is from Denmark, rockabilly originated from the American South and is a key part of Southern rock. Volbeat is a band I would call "Danish Southern Heavy Metal". I still think if the southern metal genre gets added here as a primary genre, I don't think it can fit in The Fallen because that clan already has so many genres (currently 5), and while southern and its relatives sludge and stoner have their doom roots, a decent number of bands of those styles don't follow those roots for the most part and have their own unique style, whether it's the hardcore of sludge or the mid-tempo groove of southern and stoner. With that, southern metal might end up having its own clan, and sludge metal and stoner metal can move out of The Fallen into that new clan as well. So while doom metal, gothic metal, and drone metal stay in The Fallen, southern metal, stoner metal, and sludge metal would have their own clan which we can name... The South!

Honestly, if southern metal were added here, I'd put it forward for The Pit more than The Fallen. To me, it's always sounded like more of a descendant of groove metal than anything doom-related. I think the muddied waters there comes more from the frequent overlap with stoner and sludge metal, but those themselves are often steps away from the core "doom metal" approach (sludge metal, for example, mixes doom with more hardcore influences, and those influences also appear as a common feature of groove metal).

What the hell has stoner metal got to do with southern rock or metal? Why would you move stoner out of the Fallen when one of it's principle offshoots is stoner doom? I assume people have heard of Electric Wizard, Cathedral, Saint Vitus and Sleep. Are we seriously suggesting we move these bands from out of the Fallen? I'm afraid you've lost me here. There seems to be a misapprehension developing amongst some that only gothic-tinged doom is real doom metal, severely narrowing the scope of what The Fallen stands for and to which I must retort, as doom metal is far more than whining goths pretending they're living in an Anne Rice novel or a Twilight movie.

A better solution would be to put anything stoner- or psych-related together in a clan, call it The Bong or The Crack House and sign me up!!

Honestly, if southern metal were added here, I'd put it forward for The Pit more than The Fallen. To me, it's always sounded like more of a descendant of groove metal than anything doom-related. I think the muddied waters there comes more from the frequent overlap with stoner and sludge metal, but those themselves are already steps away from the core "doom metal" approach (sludge metal, for example, mixes doom with more hardcore influences, and those influences also appear as a common feature of groove metal).

Thanks for this suggestion, Tymell! Let's all stop these new clan ideas for a while and let The Fallen be. Southern metal might fit very well in The Pit, and it could also replace another Pit genre, speed metal. Of course, speed metal is still around, but it is now a Heavy Metal subgenre in RYM. That would pretty much cause speed metal to move to The Guardians as a subgenre to Heavy Metal. But then the Pit would be more of a mid-tempo groove clan than a speedy thrash one. We'll just see how it goes from there...

Brief and altogether really unhelpful input from me.

STOP WASTING YOUR LIVES PUTTING EVERYTHING INTO PIGEON-HOLES!!!!  DRIVES ME MENTAL!

Rant over.

Carry on.  (Not like you weren't going to anyways)

I have to admit that I'm getting a little frustrated at the insinuation that Metal Academy should blindly follow the direction of a competitor that is in no way the authority on metal. We're trying to set a new standard for a metal website here & I have zero concern for what RYM, Metal Archives or anyone else are doing with their subgenres. In fact, long-term I'd like to think that Metal Academy will become the sole point of call for all metalheads seeking new music. I can also tell you that it is our intent to make some changes to the subgenres over time (in fact we're currently looking at a change now & you should see that play out over the next week or so) but those changes will be made purely on the informed opinions of ourselves & our senior clan members. Not what other sites are doing.

I have to admit that I'm getting a little frustrated at the insinuation that Metal Academy should blindly follow the direction of a competitor that is in no way the authority on metal. We're trying to set a new standard for a metal website here & I have zero concern for what RYM, Metal Archives or anyone else are doing with their subgenres. In fact, long-term I'd like to think that Metal Academy will become the sole point of call for all metalheads seeking new music. I can also tell you that it is our intent to make some changes to the subgenres over time (in fact we're currently looking at a change now & you should see that play out over the next week or so) but those changes will be made purely on the informed opinions of ourselves & our senior clan members. Not what other sites are doing.

I would never seek to try to tell others what their standards should be and I only started this thread to try to stimulate a little debate as genre definitions always seems to be a good subject for member interaction, rightly or wrongly. Mainly it was to draw attention to the anniversary of Candlemass' debut, but RYM's introduction of the Epic Doom genre had stuck in my mind and seemed like a reasonable connection to such a landmark release in the (valid or not) genre. Sorry if my post has trod on any toes and I am not trying to infer that there is any problem with how Metal Academy does things. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the way Daniel & Ben run the site and the time and effort they put into it. Again, apologies if that's how it came across because that was never my intention.

For the record Sonny, I had no problem whatsoever with your posts & was really enjoying the conversation around epic doom metal until the thread got high-jacked.

My apologies, I had no intention of high-jacking, just enjoying a discussion. But I have a tendency to ramble on such topics.

Back more on target, whatever label it's given, Epicus Doomicus is a phenomenal album, probably (along with their much later King of the Grey Islands) what got me into doom properly.

No need to apologize Tymell as I wasn't referring to you either. I guess I'm just a bit sensitive to the consistent references to other sites of late, particularly suggestions that we should do something with Metal Academy simply because others have. I probably need to get over it.

Going back to the main topic, here's a Spotify playlist I just made to show what I'm talking about when I say the elements that shape up epic doom need to be emphasized on gothic/death-doom, like those songs I mentioned above: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75EvbiKoz4Vyizs1Ix2SE2

Back more on target, whatever label it's given, Epicus Doomicus is a phenomenal album, probably (along with their much later King of the Grey Islands) what got me into doom properly.

Agreed! I was extremely late in checking out Candlemass, having found my way into doom metal through English death doom (My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost and Anathema). Once I did finally check out Epicus Doomicus Metallicus, I quickly became a fan of all their 80s releases, along with their reinvigorated efforts between 2005 and 2009. In fact, I think I'll go and listen to the debut right now.

"Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" was actually my introduction to doom metal back in the late 1980's. I couldn't get into it initially (which was likely because due to the vocal style & my obsessive taste for extreme metal) however it majorly grew on me over time & I ended up really digging it. I think it was a genuine landmark for the genre because it nailed that doom metal atmosphere better than anyone had done previously. Come to think of it, I'm wearing my old "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" t-shirt right now actually. Their sophomore album "Nightfall" is my favourite Candlemass record these days but it's not that far in front of this one.