The Viking Metal Sub-genre Discussion

There was a discussion in The North's September Feature Release for Månegarm that had me thinking a lot this week, so I decided to put it into a thread similar to Daniel's previous experiments.

So, I pose the simple question, does Viking Metal even exist? 

The Classic

Embodiment of my own definition of "Viking Metal"

More Folk influence but still considered to have Viking Metal tendencies

One of the most popular bands considered to be Viking Metal

Popular album considered to be Viking Metal primary

Two modern albums considered to be Viking Metal primary

(Second Track "Ég féll niður í tómið")

Without having had a chance to listen to the tracks you've included here (I'll hopefully do that at some stage today), my opinion is that there's certainly a Viking Metal sound. It was defined by Bathory's "Hammerheart" & "Twilight Of The Gods" albums which clearly don't sound like black metal or folk metal as we know them. They're something we hadn't heard before. The problem with the Viking Metal genre is the title though in my opinion. To elaborate, what we've seen since the tag was first created is a bunch of releases that have nothing in common with Bathory being tagged as Viking Metal simply because there are Viking themes included in the music & lyrics. Often we see the instrumentation & arrangements having far too much in common with other subgenres & not much to do with the original intent of the term. The historical & locational slant to the genre title also means that people are hesitant to label bands that might have that sound but hail from outside of Scandinavia as Viking Metal for purely literal reasons. All of that really annoys me. Subgenre tags shouldn't be about lyrics or imagery, locations or eras. They should be purely about the sound coming out of those speakers.

Moonsorrow is a prime example of a band that's blurred the lines as many of their releases incorporate those Bathory elements into a base folk metal sound & their popularity has seen many people starting to link that sound with genuine Viking Metal (i.e. bands that sound like Moonsorrow are considered to be Viking Metal which isn't always the case). Primordial's "The Gathering Wilderness" album comes from another direction in that it definitely incorporates elements of the Viking Metal sound but is never linked to the genre due to their residing outside of Scandinavia. None of it make sense to me to be honest. The Viking Metal sound was always about rhythms & atmospheres that remind the listener of Viking ships being rowed into battle & the gallop of hooves on turf but I hear so many releases receiving the tag when they don't include any of that at all (see the Manegarm feature release for example).

So the moral of my story is that I think there is a Viking Metal sound but there are relatively few bands that are pushing it & even fewer that are doing something other than cloning the originator. I'd like to see the Metal Academy membership taking it upon ourselves to add some clarity to the topic by weeding out the releases that don't belong under the Viking Metal banner using the appropriately named Hall of Judgement.

I have a succinct input here really as the older I get the less tolerant of Bathory in general I get.  I have Hammerheart on picture disc and each time I put it on I cringe a little more.  As such I haven't explored the "genre" (we all know I love another "genre" discussion) as it kind of died for me before I ever bothered to look at it as a standalone style.  

Viking metal is one of those sub-genres that has so few genuine adherents that it feels almost irrelevant to me. I honestly wonder sometimes whether life is too short to contemplate for any length of time whether an album fits snugly into a micro-genre or not. If the purpose of genre tagging is to guide people to other releases similar to ones they like, do these really niche genres serve much of a purpose at all as they feel way too specific.

As a more general Academy question, which I guess needs to be directed to Ben or Daniel, does downvoting a genre in the genre tags on a release serve any purpose on the site or can the genre tags only be changed via The Hall? I have downvoted Viking Metal on Vredens Tid so it has zero positive and one negative vote, but it still shows folk and viking metal as it's genre tags.

As a more general Academy question, which I guess needs to be directed to Ben or Daniel, does downvoting a genre in the genre tags on a release serve any purpose on the site or can the genre tags only be changed via The Hall? I have downvoted Viking Metal on Vredens Tid so it has zero positive and one negative vote, but it still shows folk and viking metal as it's genre tags.

I've noticed that too when downvoting a subgenre on an album that I don't think is part of that subgenre, but it's just as well in case some members say otherwise. I have an idea; perhaps we can do the subgenre upvoting and downvoting a bit like the Hall. If a subgenre for an album has 8 "for" votes, then voting for that subgenre is closed and it stays there permanently. If a subgenre for an album has 8 "against" votes, then voting for that subgenre is closed and it's removed from there permanently. How about that?

Viking metal is one of those sub-genres that has so few genuine adherents that it feels almost irrelevant to me. I honestly wonder sometimes whether life is too short to contemplate for any length of time whether an album fits snugly into a micro-genre or not. If the purpose of genre tagging is to guide people to other releases similar to ones they like, do these really niche genres serve much of a purpose at all as they feel way too specific.

As a more general Academy question, which I guess needs to be directed to Ben or Daniel, does downvoting a genre in the genre tags on a release serve any purpose on the site or can the genre tags only be changed via The Hall? I have downvoted Viking Metal on Vredens Tid so it has zero positive and one negative vote, but it still shows folk and viking metal as it's genre tags.

We don't want the Clans for a Release to change without going through the Hall of Judgement. For that reason, we didn't want Genres to automatically be affected by people downvoting a Subgenre. Think of the Subgenres as just a helpful additional filtering tool. Then again, if a release is having a particular subgenre downvoted significantly, that could be grounds for adding it to the Hall for proper judgement, or as Andi suggested, treating it as judgement itself.

As for Viking Metal, it's the same issue raised many a time. Genres shouldn't have names that relate to a location (NWOBHM, US Power Metal), nor should they have purely thematic names (Viking Metal) or vaguely descriptive names (Progressive Metal, Symphonic Metal). Just go and look how many people have tried to give Amon Amarth albums the Viking Metal genre to see why Viking Metal is a problem. Sure, they've been correctly downvoted, but many listeners were obviously convinced to select it by the name.

Thrash Metal is a perfect name for that genre. People know what Thrash Metal is based on the style of music they're listening to, because the name itself isn't suggestive enough to lead them astray. Death, Black  and Power Metal are also great genre names.

Viking metal is one of those sub-genres that has so few genuine adherents that it feels almost irrelevant to me. I honestly wonder sometimes whether life is too short to contemplate for any length of time whether an album fits snugly into a micro-genre or not. If the purpose of genre tagging is to guide people to other releases similar to ones they like, do these really niche genres serve much of a purpose at all as they feel way too specific.

As a more general Academy question, which I guess needs to be directed to Ben or Daniel, does downvoting a genre in the genre tags on a release serve any purpose on the site or can the genre tags only be changed via The Hall? I have downvoted Viking Metal on Vredens Tid so it has zero positive and one negative vote, but it still shows folk and viking metal as it's genre tags.

We don't want the Clans for a Release to change without going through the Hall of Judgement. For that reason, we didn't want Genres to automatically be affected by people downvoting a Subgenre. Think of the Subgenres as just a helpful additional filtering tool. Then again, if a release is having a particular subgenre downvoted significantly, that could be grounds for adding it to the Hall for proper judgement, or as Andi suggested, treating it as judgement itself.

As for Viking Metal, it's the same issue raised many a time. Genres shouldn't have names that relate to a location (NWOBHM, US Power Metal), nor should they have purely thematic names (Viking Metal) or vaguely descriptive names (Progressive Metal, Symphonic Metal). Just go and look how many people have tried to give Amon Amarth albums the Viking Metal genre to see why Viking Metal is a problem. Sure, they've been correctly downvoted, but many listeners were obviously convinced to select it by the name.

Thrash Metal is a perfect name for that genre. People know what Thrash Metal is based on the style of music they're listening to, because the name itself isn't suggestive enough to lead them astray. Death, Black  and Power Metal are also great genre names.

I agree about all of this, Ben, except...I think the vaguely descriptive names are necessary because it shows that progressive metal and symphonic metal are different from the rest of the metal pack with the wild experimentation of the former and the epic orchestration of the latter. Without being described as their respective names, what would they be then, heavy metal with progressive elements or heavy metal with symphonics? Man, the thought of the possibility of The Infinite not having progressive metal due to switching to just a subgenre of classic heavy metal is enough to give me chills. While a few genre names are objective, I'm just happy the way a couple of them are...

They definitely need to be genres. I just think the names are misleading. I believe descriptive names should be saved for Subgenres. For example, Death Metal is a top level genre, then it has more descriptive subgenres, such as Melodic Death Metal, Brutal Death Metal and Technical Death Metal. This is how genres should be IMO.

Terms like Symphonic, Melodic, Brutal, Technical, Progressive, Depressive, Atmospheric should be saved for subgenres, otherwise you run the risk of people using them incorrectly. Having descriptive genre names results in a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse getting linked to Symphonic Metal, and absolutely EVERYTHING that has progressive qualities being linked to Progressive Metal.

Take a look at the top 30 or so albums for Progressive Metal on RYM. Do the likes of Tool, Opeth, Mastodon, Gojira, Atheist, Queensryche, Maudlin of the Well, Voivod, Dream Theater, Enslaved and Nevermore actually sound at all similar? Is there any reason for a fan of Dream Theater to assume that they would enjoy Atheist? Is there any real reason to assume that a huge fan of Voivod would totally dig Maudlin of the Well too? I see Orphaned Land has Progressive Metal as its primary genre too. Is it progressive? Yeah, sure. Does it sound like Queensryche?

Gothic Metal is another example. Having such a descriptive name results in a whole heap of black metal bands like Cradle of Filth getting dumped into that genre. There are also heaps of bands that are definitely what we consider to be Gothic Metal that have absolutely nothing to do with gothic in its literal sense (The Gathering and Lacuna Coil come to mind). It's confusing, so no wonder people get it wrong.

Note that this is all a theoretical conversation. I'm not suggesting we get rid of any of these genres or even that we should change them to something else. I just wish they were different. Imagine a world where there are between 10 to 20 non-descriptive metal genres that are used to clump together releases that actually "sound" somewhat similar, rather than merely having the same theme or some musical element like being progressive or contain symphonic instrumentation. Genres would be so much more useful then, allowing people to easily discover music that's actually similar in style to something else they've enjoyed.

Back to the actual topic though... I agree with Daniel that Viking Metal is an actual sound, as found on Hammerheart and Twilight of the Gods. I just don't think there are many bands that actually play it. I was listening to one just yesterday though that certainly fits the bill. Check out this Hades track.

As others say, the name is certainly an issue. I get where it stems from, but it is often misleading, as many might be inclined to label any band with Viking lyrics themes as viking metal, or likewise to dismiss a band as such because they don't involve Vikings. It being a comparatively small genre doesn't help.

I myself was once of the opinion that it wasn't really big/distinct enough to warrant its own genre tag, but I've come around since (mostly through listening to a lot of Bathory and some others). Personally, I tend to label it "epic metal", just for my own purposes. I get that that also isn't a perfectly clear term by any means, I just feel it sums up the core of the sound, for me anyway.

They definitely need to be genres. I just think the names are misleading. I believe descriptive names should be saved for Subgenres. For example, Death Metal is a top level genre, then it has more descriptive subgenres, such as Melodic Death Metal, Brutal Death Metal and Technical Death Metal. This is how genres should be IMO.

Terms like Symphonic, Melodic, Brutal, Technical, Progressive, Depressive, Atmospheric should be saved for subgenres, otherwise you run the risk of people using them incorrectly. Having descriptive genre names results in a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse getting linked to Symphonic Metal, and absolutely EVERYTHING that has progressive qualities being linked to Progressive Metal.

Take a look at the top 30 or so albums for Progressive Metal on RYM. Do the likes of Tool, Opeth, Mastodon, Gojira, Atheist, Queensryche, Maudlin of the Well, Voivod, Dream Theater, Enslaved and Nevermore actually sound at all similar? Is there any reason for a fan of Dream Theater to assume that they would enjoy Atheist? Is there any real reason to assume that a huge fan of Voivod would totally dig Maudlin of the Well too? I see Orphaned Land has Progressive Metal as its primary genre too. Is it progressive? Yeah, sure. Does it sound like Queensryche?

Gothic Metal is another example. Having such a descriptive name results in a whole heap of black metal bands like Cradle of Filth getting dumped into that genre. There are also heaps of bands that are definitely what we consider to be Gothic Metal that have absolutely nothing to do with gothic in its literal sense (The Gathering and Lacuna Coil come to mind). It's confusing, so no wonder people get it wrong.

Note that this is all a theoretical conversation. I'm not suggesting we get rid of any of these genres or even that we should change them to something else. I just wish they were different. Imagine a world where there are between 10 to 20 non-descriptive metal genres that are used to clump together releases that actually "sound" somewhat similar, rather than merely having the same theme or some musical element like being progressive or contain symphonic instrumentation. Genres would be so much more useful then, allowing people to easily discover music that's actually similar in style to something else they've enjoyed.

Yeah, I actually totally agree with this. Gothic Metal is especially hard to pin down, especially if you tried to think of a band that plays pure Gothic Metal. Most either seem to be a strain of Gothic Doom or Gothic Alternative, and a lot of bands that get tagged as pure Gothic could quite easily fit into another genre, at least in my experience. 

Progressive metal is a tricky one, because you can have Progressive _______ Metal and put absolutely any parent genre there. But there are definitely bands that play a purer strain that sounds like heavy metallic Prog Rock as opposed to a different kind of metal with progressive elements. 

Not sure if Metal Academy is gonna be the site to revolutionize how Metal genres work but I'd be all here for it if that were the case haha.

Well, let's continue down the theoretical rabbit hole and see where we end up.

If you created all sorts of Progressive subgenres to strip out all the releases that have progressive tendencies (Progressive Death Metal, Progressive Black Metal, Progressive Thrash Metal etc.) what genre would be applied to the likes of Dream Theater, Queensryche, Fates Warning, Symphony X, Circus Maximus, Liquid Tension Experiment etc.

If we don't want an overly thematic or descriptive genre title, we have to come up with something that feels right without drawing unsuspecting metal listeners into choosing it incorrectly. My first thought is Dream Metal. I know it sounds too fluffy for a metal genre, but it really draws attention to the link to Dream Theater. Plus many musicians could only "dream" of being able to perform some of the stuff these bands play.

Anyone got another idea? I'm trying to come up with a word that relates to technical proficiency, or virtuosity or something like that.

I myself was once of the opinion that it wasn't really big/distinct enough to warrant its own genre tag, but I've come around since (mostly through listening to a lot of Bathory and some others). Personally, I tend to label it "epic metal", just for my own purposes. I get that that also isn't a perfectly clear term by any means, I just feel it sums up the core of the sound, for me anyway.

I thought of the "epic metal" label when trying to think of an alternate name for US power metal, but Viking metal is a good genre to nickname that too with its Nordic fantasy conceptual themes and grand atmosphere.

If we don't want an overly thematic or descriptive genre title, we have to come up with something that feels right without drawing unsuspecting metal listeners into choosing it incorrectly. My first thought is Dream Metal. I know it sounds too fluffy for a metal genre, but it really draws attention to the link to Dream Theater. Plus many musicians could only "dream" of being able to perform some of the stuff these bands play.

Anyone got another idea? I'm trying to come up with a word that relates to technical proficiency, or virtuosity or something like that.

"Dream metal", though it would make some sense for Dream Theater, seems like a more appropriate label for non-sludgy post-rock/metal bands like Solstafir.

I came up with 15 different types of progressive metal, one per song and band, that can be found here: https://metal.academy/forum/11/thread/943

Well, let's continue down the theoretical rabbit hole and see where we end up.

If you created all sorts of Progressive subgenres to strip out all the releases that have progressive tendencies (Progressive Death Metal, Progressive Black Metal, Progressive Thrash Metal etc.) what genre would be applied to the likes of Dream Theater, Queensryche, Fates Warning, Symphony X, Circus Maximus, Liquid Tension Experiment etc.

If we don't want an overly thematic or descriptive genre title, we have to come up with something that feels right without drawing unsuspecting metal listeners into choosing it incorrectly. My first thought is Dream Metal. I know it sounds too fluffy for a metal genre, but it really draws attention to the link to Dream Theater. Plus many musicians could only "dream" of being able to perform some of the stuff these bands play.

Anyone got another idea? I'm trying to come up with a word that relates to technical proficiency, or virtuosity or something like that.

Dream Metal sounds like it has a  -gazey connotation to me. How about High Metal (maybe confused with Stoner Metal admittedly), Highbrow Metal, Connoisseur Metal or my favourite Haute-Metal (or even Haute-Metale!)

I dunno guys. I think the word "progressive" is a pretty accurate & universally accepted description of the sound & think it serves its purpose well. I just think we need to separate the extreme metal versions of progressive metal from those that are based on your more accessible sounds. Therefore, I'd simply go with two subgenres to cover each variety:

Progressive Metal (conventional)

Extreme Progressive Metal

Then if you have a release like Death's "Individual Thought Patterns" you can simply layer a Death Metal subgenre over the top of the Extreme Progressive Metal one so that the release comes up in searches on both sounds & resides in two clans. That way you can separate a release like Persefone's "Core" (which Andi & I spoke about recently & doesn't really sit all that comfortably alongside your more traditional death metal releases in our opinion) by it simply having one subgenre tag that will see it residing only within The Infinite but still highlight the fact that it's an extreme metal release.

Thoughts?

I dunno guys. I think the word "progressive" is a pretty accurate & universally accepted description of the sound & think it serves its purpose well. I just think we need to separate the extreme metal versions of progressive metal from those that are based on your more accessible sounds. Therefore, I'd simply go with two subgenres to cover each variety:

Progressive Metal (conventional)

Extreme Progressive Metal

Then if you have a release like Death's "Individual Thought Patterns" you can simply layer a Death Metal subgenre over the top of the Extreme Progressive Metal one so that the release comes up in searches on both sounds & resides in two clans. That way you can separate a release like Persefone's "Core" (which Andi & I spoke about recently & doesn't really sit all that comfortably alongside your more traditional death metal releases in our opinion) by it simply having one subgenre tag that will see it residing only within The Infinite but still highlight the fact that it's an extreme metal release.

Thoughts?

That actually makes a lot of sense. So extreme prog metal would still reside in The Infinite? A secondary genre tag would also be required to delineate the extreme prog releases, ie death metal for (earlier) Opeth and black metal for (later) Enslaved? Would those releases then also reside in the respective secondary clans? Just asking so I get it straight. If so it sounds like a very satisfactory solution to an irksome issue. I think Extreme Progressive Metal in particular is an excellent denominator. I say go with it.

I can definitely see some merit to the idea: I find that while there isn't really a single true "Extreme metal" on its own, when you take certain broader extreme metal styles and start to apply other elements to them, it can often blur the lines between those genre distinctions.

A lot of "progressive extreme metal" types often seem to incorporate elements of death, black, doom, etc. Same with death 'n' roll types sometimes too: I tend to prefer the term "rot 'n' roll" since these releases often depart quite heavily from actual "death metal", and oftentimes mix in elements of death and black in some combination (and also because I just think "rot 'n' roll" sounds cool).

For whatever it's worth, my "headcanon" is that there are some "core" genres (thrash, power, death, etc) and then there are those that are often applied alongside them as variations: progressive metal, avant-garde metal, alternative metal. These are often added like additional prefixes to the "core" styles (e.g. progressive death metal, avant-garde black metal, etc), and while "pure" forms of them certainly exist, they often seem to exhibit a greater degree of sonic variation than others: two thrash metal bands probably aren't going to sound -that- wildly different, but two alternative metal bands might sound totally different in many ways, even if they still have enough in common to fit into the genre as a whole. Basically, those genres always feel a bit more loosely defined to me, more about overarching approach and structure than specific elements of their sound.

Just my way of thinking on it though.

That actually makes a lot of sense. So extreme prog metal would still reside in The Infinite? A secondary genre tag would also be required to delineate the extreme prog releases, ie death metal for (earlier) Opeth and black metal for (later) Enslaved? Would those releases then also reside in the respective secondary clans? Just asking so I get it straight. If so it sounds like a very satisfactory solution to an irksome issue. I think Extreme Progressive Metal in particular is an excellent denominator. I say go with it.

To clarify Sonny, I'm suggesting that for a release that is incorporates elements of both Death Metal & Progressive Metal (like "Individual Thoughts Patterns" for example) we'd have two tags (i.e Death Metal & Extreme ProgressiveMetal) which would see it residing in both The Horde & The Infinite. Then for a release that incorporates elements of death metal but clearly doesn't belong alongside other death metal releases (like Persefone's "Core" for example) we'd simply give it the sole Extreme Progressive Metal tag which would see it residing only in The Infinite. In the same way, a Dream Theater release may only be tagged as Progressive Metal (conventional) so that it resides only in The Infinite while a release from Queensryche might have both Progressive Metal (conventional) & Heavy Metal so that it resides in two clans.

So then Extreme Progressive Metal would become the catch all for any releases that have progressive qualities but aren't actually Progressive Metal. It improves things slightly, but all those releases (that we agree aren't actually Progressive Metal in the truest sense) would still sit under the Progressive Metal genre. It still feels like sweeping things under the carpet.

Why can't we just call Individual Thought Patterns "Progressive Death Metal"? If that subgenre existed under Death Metal, then that album is perfectly covered. Same with Atheist.

Because they wouldn't then reside in The Infinite when they clearly should in my opinion.

I think the Metal Academy clans should be a secondary consideration to creating a simplified and practical metal genre tree. Or maybe not? 

Plus there's no reason why we couldn't have a rule that any of the Progressive subgenres are connected with their natural clan and The Infinite.

I think the Metal Academy clans should be a secondary consideration to creating a simplified and practical metal genre tree. Or maybe not? 

Quoted Ben

Hhhmmmm.... I think it's important to regard them both as priorities actually because if we don't have releases allocated to the right clans then some of our clan members won't have access to all of the clan-specific functionality that's available to them, like being able to nominate additional subgenres for example. Or playlist & feature list submission for that matter.

Plus there's no reason why we couldn't have a rule that any of the Progressive subgenres are connected with their natural clan and The Infinite.

That's good to know. I wasn't aware of that. I wouldn't think that will allow someone from The Infinite the privileges to nominate an additional subgenre for the release but I would think that's unlikely to be required.

The main problem I have with your suggestion of creating a "progressive death metal" subgenre is that it would mean that we'd then be looking at the need to create a whole bunch of others too e.g. progressive thrash metal, progressive metalcore, progressive deathcore, progressive power metal, progressive sludge metal, etc. Don't even start on other prefixes like avant-garde, symphonic, neoclassical, post, etc. It's way simpler to simply go with the two progressive metal options I've suggested. I think it's fair to say that you can break up the progressive market into those that do like extreme metal & those that don't. Plus, what would you do with a release like "Core" which obviously utilizes death metal tools but doesn't fit in with the death metal crowd. It's a progressive metal record at its fundamental core & doesn't require additional subgenrification in my opinion but it clearly needs to be separated from the Dream Theaters & Queensryches. The extreme progressive metal tag would be perfect for it.

The same idea could be used to solve our "symphonic" problem in my opinion although there is one problem we'd have to overcome. If we had an "extreme symphonic metal" subgenre it'd solve the issue of extreme metal releases residing within The Guardians. The only question would be what clan would you associate an extreme symphonic metal subgenre with. We've already got a symphonic black metal one too.

A question that has always bothered me is at what point does an extreme metal release become progressive and what exactly does progressive mean when related to extreme metal. Enslaved, for example, have always written more complex music than a large number of their peers, but I think you would be hard pressed to tag albums like Vikingligr Veldi and Eld as progressive even though, for black metal released at the time, some of the tracks were definitely more convoluted than the norm. So at what point did they become progressive (because latter day releases are) and what would be the criteria and definition of the genre? Personally I think progressive when applied to extreme metal is an over-used descriptor - yes it definitely exists, but in genres like black metal that have evolved so much over the years some bands are producing complex and challenging albums that are way more progressive in a literal sense than some of those actually tagged as progressive - compare Orannsi Pazuzu's current output to the aforementioned Enslaved's and see who is breaking more ground, for example. Incidentally, OP are being tagged as avant-garde, but I don't agree with that tag at all. Avant-garde is a tag that is absolutely overused in metal circles.

I'm not suggesting the website change to fit this, just throwing it out as a thought. But it could be interesting to make two distinct groups of Genres and then Styles of said genre 

Example being

Genres

• Alternative
• Black
• Death
• Doom
• Drone
• Grind
• Groove
• Heavy
• Industrial
• Metalcore
• Post
• Power
• Sludge
• Stoner
• Thrash
• Trance

Styles

• Avant-Garde
• Atmospheric
• Brutal
• Crossover
• Cyber
• Depressive
• Epic
• Folk
• Gaze
• Gothic
• Melodic
• Neoclassical
• Progressive
• Symphonic
• Technical
• Traditional

Some of the traditional meanings could be altered, for example "Brutal" could simply refer to a very heavy variant of the genre, "Crossover" any genre with significant hardcore punk influence, "Cyber" with significant electronics etc. I think it'd be neat, again not pushing for site change just wanted to discuss.