Daniel's Forum Replies
It’s the added complexity in the arrangements & song-structures as well as the cold, angry atmosphere. It also helps that it’s a thrash riff masterclass with all four band members at the absolute peak of their powers from a performance & musicianship perspective.
By the way, you can hear Blackmore using sweep-picking at the end of “April” which is pretty astounding given that it was still only 1969.
My Top Ten Metal Release of the 1980's list:
01. Slayer - "Reign In Blood" (1986)
02. Metallica - "...And Justice For All" (1988)
03. Morbid Angel - "Altars of Madness" (1989)
04. Slayer - "South of Heaven" (1988)
05. Metallica - "Master of Puppets" (1986)
06. Sepultura - "Beneath the Remains" (1989)
07. Exodus - "Bonded by Blood" (1985)
08. Faith No More - "The Real Thing" (1989)
09. Iron Maiden - "Somewhere in Time" (1986)
10. Godflesh - "Streetcleaner" (1989)
Psychotic Waltz - "A Social Grace" (1990)
How I’ve managed to overlook San Diego progressive metallers Psychotic Waltz up until now is anyone’s guess because their 1990 debut album is a very impressive effort to say the least. “A Social Grace” harnesses outstanding musicianship & some highly complex arrangements to create over an hour of seriously classy metal music that lacks nothing in the heaviness department either. Fans of 1980’s Fates Warning should immediately get onboard this ship as there are close similarities however I’d suggest that Psychotic Waltz are a touch heavier with their sound further indulging in the chunkier end of the US power scene more consistently.
Front man Buddy Lackey takes a theatrical & operatic approach that often sounds quite a bit like Iron Maiden/Samson legend Bruce Dickinson. He does a pretty reasonable job at navigating Psychotic Waltz’s rhythmic technicalities & ensures that none of the thirteen tracks included could be considered as weak or filler. There’s a noticeable lack of memorable vocal hooks though & it’s this absence that sees the appeal of “A Social Grace’ being capped at around that four-star mark. The instrumentation is often nothing short of dazzling but I can’t say that I can remember much of the song-writing afterwards & that can be the difference between good & great when it comes to progressive music a lot of the time as it clearly is here.
Still… you’ll do well to find a more capable & professional example of early progressive metal than this one. It’s right up there with the best material that had been released to the time in my opinion & I’d probably take it over Fates Warning’s more well known classics like “The Spectre Within” or “Awaken The Guardian” to be honest.
4/5
Sonny & Rex, I reckon you might dig this one.
Check out the similarities between the Diamond Head riff at 1:24 in 1980's "Am I Evil?" & the riff at 0:23 in Mercyful Fate's "Black Masses" from 1983. Plagiarism or coincidence?
Deep Purple - Deep Purple
Oh, hey, Deep Purple again. Three in a row. And the last album with Rod whatever his last name is. I'll be sad to see him go even if the band has matured. I don't have anything to say about this one, it's basically just a generic lump of rock I have no thoughts or real feelings on.
Personally, I find "Deep Purple" to be another highly creative record that traverses a whole array of different sounds. I'd probably tag it as another psychedelic/progressive rock release with a noticeable blues rock influence & very little in the way of genuine hard rock.
I'm not sure anyone else has heard it Morpheus but if it's been such a divisive release at Metal Archives then let's include it as our next record to investigate.
How about " Lake Isle of Innersfree" then? Metal or not? What subgenre?
It's certainly not metal & I'd also suggest that it's not a pop song of any description. I'm gonna go for chamber folk.
I was more impressed with than album than most people. Even though they're better at hard rock, Deep Purple proved that they can really bring out the fantasy vibes through rock long before symphonic prog or any fantasy genres of rock and metal ever existed. It was a very "vibes" album from what I remember. And yeah, the prog wasn't always the MOST creative as it had been done more well before, but I kinda believe that the first two real prog bands were Moody Blues and Deep Purple, and this was one of those albums that helped cement it before King Crimson came into the picture (and coined the term).
That one will be coincidence as the guitarists are just playing the same hammer/pull-off & descending down the string a fret at a time. It’s a pretty easy thing to come up with really so I wouldn’t think there’s a much of a connection. Good pickup though.
Deep Purple - The Book of Taliesyn
A much more proggy album from the same lineup as the last album. Feels a lot more interesting to see Deep Purple doing this rather than the bizarre selection of covers from last time. That said, this album doesn't really feel much like a Deep Purple album a good deal of the time. It's just really that Hammond organ giving that distinct Deep Purple flavor and even then it isn't always the tone setter it should be.
The whole epic fantasy premise the cover promises doesn't quite land. The opening track, which I've linked, does, doing a very nice energetic and dynamic song that the rest of the album just fails to live up to. A lot of this just feels like some generic rock music you'd use in a movie or a game because you couldn't get a real song. It's not outright awful, but I can't really remember most of it after the album finishes playing. Except Kentucky Woman. I hate Kentucky Woman, but that's less because it's necessarily bad but more because I remember when people overplayed the absolute hell out of that song, other covers don't give me that same viscera hatred.
I just gave this album a couple of spins. I agree with you that it's more progressive than "Shades of Deep Purple". Despite what people may say, there's still no hard rock or heavy psych here though. I'd go with a dual tagging of psychedelic rock & progressive rock.
Deep Purple - "Shades of Deep Purple" (1968)
Despite being included on Metal Archives & receiving a dual Hard Rock/Heavy Psych primary tag on RYM, Deep Purple's debut album shouldn't really qualify as anything more than your standard psychedelic rock model. There's only really one track that I'd suggest is heavy psych ("Mandrake Root") while there's bugger all hard rock to speak of. It's not a bad record though. I don't mind it.
Rory Gallagher - "Wheels Within Wheels" (2003)
So Mike Portnoy is officially back in Dream Theater.
*drops bomb & runs away so as to avoid all the prog frothing that will inevitably take place following this long-awaited news*
What do we think about "Lady of Fire"? Metal or not? What specific subgenre?
It's basically Jimi Hendrix style psychedelic rock that's been pumped up to eleven with some psychotic lead guitar work. I'll go with heavy psych on this one. Does anyone else hear the chorus of Deep Purple's "Woman From Tokyo" in the guitar melody that comes in directly after the chorus?
Mercyful Fate - "The Beginning" (1987)
I know I'll likely be in the extreme minority here when I tell you that the first release I purchased from legendary Danish heavy metal icons Mercyful Fate was this 1987 compilation back in the early 1990's. It brings together the band's very strong 1982 self-titled debut E.P. with three alternative versions of tracks taken from their 1983 "Melissa" album that were recorded for the BBC's "The Friday Rock Show" & the B-side from the "Black Funeral" single. It also succeeds in its intent due to the very high quality of everything the band attempt.
I've always rated the self-titled E.P. very highly. In fact, I place it a cut above Mercyful Fate's widely celebrated sophomore album "Don't Break The Oath" these days which is saying something. "Melissa" is my favourite Fate record too so I really couldn't go wrong with this material. The BBC recordings are well produced with the versions of "Curse Of The Pharaoh" & "Satan's Fall" being particularly strong. The B-side "Black Masses" suffers a little in the production department but still possesses that classic Mercyful Fate aura which gives it enough appeal to make it interesting too. The highlight is undoubtedly "A Corpse Without Soul" from the E.P. though as it's one of the great heavy metal anthems from the early 80's.
All of the qualities you look for in a Mercyful Fate record are here in spades. The soaring vocals, the dark atmosphere, the searing solos... You can't really go wrong with "The Beginning" & it should be regarded as essential listening if you're a devotee of those first couple of Fate releases.
4/5
Anthem - "Bound to Break" (1987)
I’ve been very much looking forward to investigating some more of Tokyo heavy metal four-piece Anthem’s more widely celebrated releases after thoroughly enjoying my initial experiences with their highly regarded 1989 fifth album “Hunting Time” recently so I decided to give their 1987 third full-length “Bound To Break” a crack this week. It features a slightly different lineup with Eizo Sakamoto handling the microphone duties before Yukio Morikawa had entered the fold & Sakamoto proves himself to be a talented & powerful singer with his masculine tone being a highlight of the record. As with “Hunting Time”, English producer Chris Tsangarides has produced a particularly metal sounding album here too. It feels a lot like Judas Priest’s “Defenders of the Faith” in that way. The quality of the song-writing isn’t quite as strong as “Hunting Time” though with most of the tracklisting sitting a step down from the best material on that record, despite the fact that there are no weak tracks to speak of. The best moments appear during the one-two punch of faster power metal number “Empty Eyes” & chunky heavy metal anthem “Show Must Go On!” while the progressive electronic interlude “Limited Lights” is also a welcome addition.
Anthem were clearly a force to be reckoned with back in the 1980’s & are probably the best Japanese heavy metal band I’ve heard to date but “Bound To Break” doesn’t feel as essential as “Hunting Time”. It’s not that different in its approach but it doesn’t deliver the knockout blows through powerful chorus hooks as regularly which leaves it sitting as a nice-to-have rather than a buy-or-die.
3.5/5
I didn’t reject any argument for Lucifer’s Friend Morpheus. You said it wasn’t a metal release & I took your word for it as I haven’t heard it. I was also conscious that RYM has a largely negative vote tally for "Lucifer's Friend" which isn't the case for "Budgie" so was looking for some sort of justification. I’m perfectly happy to include it if you think it’s justified.
I'd actually suggest that there's a clear differentiator from your typical heavy metal record & it comes in the form of the overblown, keyboard-heavy production job which certainly gives "Bark At The Moon" a unique character but also dates it pretty badly. I find that element to be the clear takeaway from the album as it almost smothers the song-writing at times. I'm with you on the quality gap between Ozzy-era Black Sabbath & Ozzy's solo work though. Despite being a diehard Randy Rhoads disciple, I've never regarded albums like "Blizzard of Ozz", "Diary of a Madman", "Bark At The Moon" or "No Rest For The Wicked" as essential releases for your average metalhead, even though some of them may be essentials for metal guitarists like myself. Ozzy's live releases are another story though as I rate "Speak Of The Devil" & "Tribute" very highly, particularly the former which is a bit of an all-timer for me.
Yeah, despite my own feelings on Budgie's metal credentials, I feel that their debut is talked about as being a metal release often enough to qualify for investigation in this thread. I recall it being the heaviest of their 1970's releases too.
While we explore "Kingdom Come", I'd also like to seek nominations for the 1971 records we'll be investigating. Black Sabbath's "Master of Reality" is a given & I feel that we probably should do Budgie's self-titled debut as well given the general feeling around that record. These are the other potential candidates:
Sir Lord Baltimore - "Sir Lord Baltimore"
Flower Travellin' Band - "Satori"
Thin Lizzy - "Thin Lizzy"
Deep Purple - "Fireball"
Anyone see anything they think is definitely metal & feel strongly about there?
How about "Hard Rain Fallin"? Metal or not? What subgenre is it?
There's no metal here as far as I'm concerned. It's pure hard rock.
Coroner - "Death Cult" demo (1986)
The Swiss tech thrash legends began in slightly more subdued style with this four-song demo tape I picked up back in my tape trading days, mainly due to my interest in hearing a Tom G. Warrior fronted Coroner.I t's pretty well produced for an 80's thrash demo & you can hear all of the finer nuances. Stylistically we see Coroner still developing their sound with only "Spiral Dream" taking the more technical direction we'd hear on the band's debut album "R.I.P." the following year. Opener "Spectators of Sin" straddles both speed & thrash metal, the fairly flat instrumental "Aerial Combat" sits in the more complex end of traditional thrash & closer "The Invincible" (my personal favourite) alternates between slow doom metal & uptempo thrash. Warrior's vocals are the best thing about this release in my opinion but there's merit to the ambitious instrumentation too just quietly. Imagine the proggy heavy metal of Mercyful Fate, the speed/thrash of early Slayer/Destruction & the weighty grunt of Celtic Frost being topped off with some added complexity & you won't be far off the mark. "Death Cult" is one of the better European thrash demos of the 1980's in my opinion & is worth a couple of listens for fans of the band.
3.5/5
Before my transition to metal I was predominantly listening to hard rock & glam metal records with my dad. Stuff like Guns 'n' Roses, The Cult, Van Halen, Motley Crue, Def Leppard, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, ZZ Top, Aerosmith, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Poison, etc. Everything changed very quickly once I began high school in 1988 though as I became exposed to new people & a whole world of new music that I simply couldn't wait to explore. I basically went from being a young rocker to an obsessive death/black/grind nut in a year. I've done a lot of thinking about what the initial records that lured me over to metal were & I think I've come up with a pretty accurate timeline below.
In early 1988 I came across Motorhead's 1984 "No Remorse" double compilation album by accident more than anything else. I believe an older kid had given me a blank cassette so that I could rip him a copy of something in my collection & I accidently played it prior to copying over the top of it. I didn't know what I was listening to at the time but it didn't take me long to figure it out & I found myself really digging the unbridled intensity, particularly some of the less rocky, speed metal-oriented tracks like "Snaggletooth" & "Locomotive". I ripped the cassette before copying over it & gave it a fair flogging over the next few weeks. I came up with the idea for this thread while revisiting "No Remorse" yesterday actually.
Also in early 1988, one of my best mates in high school had an older brother that played guitar & would play us all sorts of cool stuff that we wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise. He introduced us to Judas Priest's highly divisive & seriously underrated 1986 tenth album "Turbo". As with the Motorhead compilation, this record served the purpose of a gateway between rock & metal really well given its synth-driven stadium vibe. There are a few real belters on that album & I still regard "Turbo Lover" & "Out In The Cold" as some of the finest examples of heavy metal I've ever heard still to this day. I actually think the album as a whole is pretty solid too & can't understand the flack it seems to cop.
That same mate's favourite band was Iron Maiden so I was exposed to all of their back catalogue in quick succession that year which saw me becoming somewhat of a Maiden nut myself. I'd start with purchasing 1986's "Somewhere In Time" & 1988's brand new "Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son" albums on cassette on the same day & they're still my favourite heavy metal records now. "Somewhere In Time" is the one that did (& does) it for me the most though so it's the one I want to include here. I believe I bought "Live After Death" on cassette only a couple of days later too just quietly.
The back end of 1988 would contain arguably the biggest event in my metal life. I'd notice Metallica's fourth album "...And Justice For All" sitting around number 50 on the Australian music charts a week or two after it was released & thought it sounded interesting so I sought out a dubbed cassette copy from an older school mate. I think it's fair to say that it absolutely blew me away & changed my life overnight. I simply couldn't believe what I was hearing & can distinctly remember playing the intro to the title track to Ben (who was actually only eleven at the time, not twelve) over & over as we laughed uncontrollably at the massive contrast between the sweet acoustic guitar parts & the crunching thrash metal they'd alternate between. "...And Justice For All" is still a top ten metal release for me overall & is also my favourite Metallica release.
After quickly purchasing everything Metallica had released on CD over the next couple of months, I was ready to find out what else thrash metal had to offer. I'd start by buying Megadeth's 1986 sophomore album "Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?" & 1988 third album "So Far, So Good... So What!" on cassette on the same day without having heard a second of them. I loved both of them & still do but "Peace Sells" would tear my fucking face off in a way that the follow-up couldn't quite manage so I'll go with it.
So that was the first five that converted me if I'm remembering correctly. Anthrax & Slayer were around the same time & once I discovered Slayer it was all over for me. I was all in, hook, line & sinker after that. By the end of 1989 I was obsessed with death/black/grind & starting to build up a collection that would see me beginning to tape trade more seriously shortly afterwards.
That’s so great Xephyr. I know how long & hard you’ve been working towards that outcome so I’m very please you can put it all behind you now with a positive result.
Please be advised that I have just completed the long & arduous process of removing the Atmospheric Sludge Metal subgenre from our database. The thinking was that it's really a combination of two different subgenres that reside in different clans which creates a logistical problem for us as a subgenre can only reside in one clan. Ben & I felt it made more sense to tag post-sludge metal releases with both the sludge metal & post-metal subgenres instead which is in line with how we do it for most other similar situations e.g. post-black metal, progressive metalcore, industrial death metal, etc. Any releases where you feel there isn't enough of either of those two subgenres can be actioned through the Hall of Judgement.
Ok, let's kick off our investigation of Sir Lord Baltimore's 1970 debut album "Kingdom Come" with the opening track "Master Hearrtache" then. Metal or not? What subgenre?
It's a hard rock track as far as I can see. No metal to speak of here.
Metallica - "Power Metal" demo (1982)
An unofficial fan-released demo that I used to have floating about back in the day which includes early versions of "Hit The Lights", "Jump In The Fire". The Mechanix" & "Motorbreath". The lineup is James Hetfield (vocals/rhythm guitar), Dave Mustaine (lead guitar), Ron McGovney (bass) & Lars Ulrich (drums). Metallica hadn't quite hit on thrash metal just yet & all of these tracks represent the less extreme inclusions from the "Kill 'Em All" album that would take the world by storm the following year. Mustaine was the clear star with his solos showcasing a fire in his belly that other bands were simply unable to match. The electric speed metal of "Hit The Lights" & the more controlled NWOBHM-inspired heavy metal of "Jump In The Fire" are clearly the standout tracks here with the other two sounding a little flat in comparison to their studio versions. With the "No Life Til Leather" demo now readily available with high-quality audio, I'd suggest that "Power Metal" is pretty inessential these days.
3/5
Motörhead - "No Remorse" compilation (1984)
An excellent double compilation album that represented my initiation with the London heavy rock icons back when I was a kid. The five or six unreleased & non-album tracks are mostly high-quality while the best-of selection is impeccable to say the least. It's an outstanding introduction to an essential player in the history of heavy music.
4/5
I don’t think there’s much in the way of psychedelia there either but those groovy down-tuned riffs you mentioned are as stoner metal as it gets in my opinion. I actually think there’s more stoner than there is heavy metal on this record.
This one’s an all-timer for me. Utterly mind-blowing.
I find this one to be a really solid track to be honest.
It would seem that everyone is comfortable that more than 40% of "Paranoid" is genuine metal thus far so I think we're fairly safe to pencil it into the chronological list of the earliest metal releases.
Besides, it's obvious that the people who attribute "prog" to different genre tags have different meanings
They shouldn't though in my opinion.
After thinking about it over the last few days, I don't think tagging a release with a broad, all-encompassing up-stream genre like "Metal" really accomplishes anything though to be honest. Genre-tags are really about drawing an appropriate audience to a release so they need to provide a broad overview of what people can expect to hear. Therefore, I've always thought that I should choose a tag that encompasses as much of the release as possible. If you ask yourself the question "Who will be more likely to enjoy this release?", is it ANY fan of metal or is it stoner metal fans? I would have thought that stoner fans are likely to enjoy the vast majority of this material, even if some of it sits outside of the metal spectrum. This concept is only made more relevant by our clan configuration & I'd suggest that The Fallen members are more in tune with this sound than The Guardians members are so the tag should reside in the group of genres attached to The Fallen in my opinion.
Why does progressive metal need to be overly technical though? Progressive & technical have two different meanings. Progressive house & progressive electronic aren't technical for example. Progressive rock isn't always technical either. Musicality is certainly promoted but technicality isn't essential. It's more about maintaining a more expansive musical mindset & artistic palate than other forms of music that's important in my opinion.
That leaves me with a result that looks like this for "Paranoid":
1. War Pigs - Stoner Metal
2. Paranoid - Heavy Metal
3. Planet Caravan - Psychedelic Folk
4. Iron Man - Traditional Doom Metal
5. Electric Funeral - Traditional Doom Metal/Stoner Metal
6. Hand of Doom - Stoner Rock
7. Rat Salad - Heavy Psych
8. Fairies Wear Boots - Heavy Psych
Based on those results, I'm comfortable with the album's metal credentials & are allocating it dual stoner metal & heavy psych tags in order to cover the majority of the sounds it contains. Once again, there's very little actual heavy metal on offer here as far as I can see so I feel that "Paranoid" is a better fit for The Fallen than it is for The Guardians. What do you guys think on that topic?
Unless anyone has any last minute nominations, we'll kick off our investigation into Sir Lord Baltimore's "Kingdom Come" album tomorrow.
What about "Fairies Wear Boots" then? Metal or not? What subgenre?
This one isn't that straight forward to be honest. I can see the argument for a metal tag but personally I think it sits more comfortably under heavy psych.
I disagree. I sit on the complete other side of the fence in that regard. Queensryche certainly aren't the most technical of prog artists but I feel that there's enough complexity & creativity in both the song-writing & production to warrant a prog tag, particularly as they don't sound much like your average heavy metal band.
Trouble - "Trouble" (1990)
My knowledge of Chicago doom legends Trouble was limited to their first couple of classic mid-1980’s albums up until deciding to investigate their highly regarded self-titled fourth album this week. I’m a big fan of 1984’s “Psalm 9” record while it’s follow-up from the following year “The Skull” was worth a few listens too. Interestingly though, “Trouble” seems to be regarded as more of a heavy metal release than a complete doomathon though which intrigued me. It’s often referred to as one of Trouble’s very best releases too so I was keen to see what it had to offer.
After giving “Trouble” a few spins over the last couple of days, I’ve found it to be another very well produced & executed metal bum from a band that really knows their stuff. It’s benefited from a nice, heavy sound with a crisp clarity & some solid performances. Front man Eric Wagner in particular delivers one of his best contributions. Unfortunately though, there were some unexpected challenges to be found for me in the stylistic direction of this album. You see, while it may not be something that’s been widely spoken about, “Trouble” is actually just as much of a stoner metal record as it is a heavy metal one, perhaps even more so. None of the ten tracks can accurately be described as doom metal, instead offering a groovy brand of down-tuned riffage that’s very similar to that which English doom merchants Cathedral would start to push a few years later. Now I’ve never been much of a fan of your groovier stoner metal model. In fact, it kinda urks me so I’ve struggled with most of “Trouble”. Only the more heavy metal inclined tracks like “The Wolf” & “E.N.D.” have managed to offer me much in the way of appeal along with the Beatles-inspired hard rocker “The Misery Shows (Act II)” so I can’t say that this has been a particularly rewarding experience overall. Perhaps it’s just a case of a record like this one simply not being any of my business. I think I’ll stick to Trouble’s doomier releases in future.
3/5
Be my guest Andi. Just bear in mind that my call on the metal credentials of “Empire” has nothing to do with how heavy the album is as hard rock can often be just as heavy as heavy metal in my opinion. In stating that the album doesn’t warrant a primary metal tag I’m simply saying that for the majority of the album the instrumentalists are employing rock techniques rather than metal ones.
Queensrÿche - "Empire" (1990)
The Washington progressive metal kings' fourth full-length is the first & only one of their records that I bought immediately upon release, fresh off the back of being blown away by the title track on underground metal radio. It's a beautifully produced record too with stunning performances from all of the contributors, particularly super-talented front man Geoff Tate. What I wasn't quite prepared for was the more commercially accessible sound that the band had opted for on this occasion though & it took a bit of adjusting to. You see, "Empire" isn't technically a metal record as it only contains a couple of metal tunes which also happen to be the highlights of the album (see "Empire" & "One & Only"). The rest of the record sits very much in the progressive rock & hard rock space, sounding kinda like a more complex version of "Hysteria"-period Def Leppard more than anything else. Now, that's not a problem in itself & there is no doubt some of Queensrÿche's best material to be found here in patches but there are some clear inconsistencies in the quality of the song-writing that I find to be an issue. The wins (like the wonderfully seep & stripped-back prog rocker "Della Brown") certainly outweigh the losses & make "Empire" worth exploring but radio-friendly tracks like "Jet City Woman", "Another Rainy Night (Without You)" & "Resistance" & "Hand on Heart" go a long way to convincing me that this was the least impressive Queensrÿche release to the time.
3.5/5
Various Artists - "Angola Prison Spirituals" (1959)
Make sure you submit your vote in the Hall of Judgement poll around that record’s avant-garde metal credentials if you haven’t already Andi.
How about "Rat Salad" then? Metal or not? What subgenre?
I'm going with heavy psych with a strong jazz-rock influence.
Now things start to get really interesting for the remainder of the tracklisting. What do you think of "Hand of Doom"? Metal or not? What subgenre?
Despite the doomy section at the start & end, I feel that this track simply "feels" more like rock than metal with the middle part sitting very clearly in the hard rock space. I'm gonna go with stoner rock on this one.
"Electric Funeral" then. Metal or not? If so, what subgenre?
Personally, I'd suggest that it's a heavily psychedelic dirge that's just as comfortable under the stoner metal or traditional doom metal tags.
The Hall of Judgement poll on the metal credentials of “Deep Purple in Rock” is evenly split at 3-3 at the moment which means that we’re gonna need quite a few more votes to achieve a clear majority & force a result. If you’re a member of The Guardians & are yet to submit a vote then I’d like to encourage you to participate.