Daniel's Forum Replies

I was actually surprised by how much I enjoyed some of this playlist too, particularly the more intense stuff during the second half. In fact, I actually don't mind a lot of the heavier nu metal stuff which I don't often admit to myself. The funk metal & rap metal stuff is largely hit & miss for me personally & that Corey Feldman album is one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life & was very much a novelty inclusion. There's actually a lot worse I could have included from that album which is saying something. Who knew Corey had made a pop/metal record after he'd ceased to become even remotely relevant??

Yeah I felt fairly similarly about this playlist to be honest Vinny & it reminded me the reasons why I opted to remove myself from The North altogether because there's a substantial portion of the subgenres it covers that are simply too far removed from my personal tastes which sit very much in line with with your own. I could easily have stuck to my comfort zones when creating these lists but it I would always have left someone disappointed so I opted to go with a more holistic approach. I'll be interested to see what the community consensus is on that over the next month or so but I think things will inevitably morph into whatever direction the clan members want to take over time once we have more regular suggestions for inclusion coming in.

Doomy Pennsylvania thrash metal from 1987. For fans of Celtic Frost, Hellhammer & Obituary.

Dream Death - "Journey Into Mystery" (1987)

The debut album from this Pennsylvania-based thrash metal outfit who sound very much like what Celtic Frost would have sounded like if Tom Araya was their front man. There's a really strong doom element to their sound. In fact, I much prefer the doomier parts over the more up-tempo material to be honest. Also, I have to admit that I spent most of this revisit thinking just how much this record would be up Sonny's alley so I wasn't surprised in the slightest to see that he's rated this a 4.5/5 just now. Saves me from recommending it to him. For fans of Celtic Frost, Hellhammer & Obituary.

3.5/5

You've already rated it Andi!

My revised list:

25. Obituary - "Cause Of Death" (1990)

24. My Dying Bride - "Turn Loose The Swans" (1993)      

23. Leprous - "Live at Rockefeller Music Hall" (2016)

22. Morbid Angel - "Blessed Are The Sick" (1991)      

21. Metallica - "Master Of Puppets" (1986)      

20. Darkthrone - "Transilvanian Hunger" (1994)      

19. Carcass - "Necroticism: Descanting The Insalubrious" (1991)      

18. ISIS - "Panopticon" (2004)      

17. Neurosis - "Souls At Zero" (1992)     

16. Botch - "We Are The Romans" (1999) 

15. Slayer - "South Of Heaven" (1988)      

14. Immolation - "Close To A World Below" (2000)      

13. Suffocation - "Pierced From Within" (1995)      

12. Boris - "Boris At Last -Feedbacker-" (2003)      

11. Alice In Chains - "Dirt" (1992)      

10. Death - "Human" (1991)      

09. Morbid Angel - "Altars Of Madness" (1989)      

08. Metallica - "...And Justice For All" (1988)      

07. diSEMBOWELMENT - "Transcendence Into The Peripheral" (1993)      

06. ISIS - "The Mosquito Control" E.P. (1998)      

05. Sunn O))) - "Black One" (2005)      

04. Pig Destroyer - "Natasha" E.P. (2008)  

03. Deathspell Omega - "Kenose" E.P. (2005)  

02. Burzum - "Filosofem" (1996)      

01. Slayer - "Reign In Blood" (1986)

Xephyr & saxy, please report directly to this double live album pronto. I repeat... your presence is required here immediately.... over.

Is this the best piece of progressive metal ever performed? Quite possibly!

A track from the new "Pharos" E.P. from former Emperor front man & Norwegian progressive metal master Ihsahn.

A track from the upcoming "Metal City" album from NWOBHM legends Raven (due for release on 18th September).

A teaser from the upcoming live release from Swedish doom metal outfit Atarvarium entitled "An Evening With Avatarium - Live in Stockholm January 2020" (due for release tomorrow).

The new single from Fates Warning entitled "Scars" which is taken from the Connecticut progressive metallers upcoming album "Long Day Good Night" (due for release on 6th November).

The new Carcass single "The Living Dead at the Manchester Morgue" which is taken from their upcoming "Despicable" E.P. (due for release on 30th October).

The new Napalm Death single "Amoral" which is taken from their upcoming album "Throes of Joy in the Jaws of Defeatism" which is due for release on 18th September.

The new E.P. from Canadian progressive metallers Protest The Hero entitled "Fabula & Syuzhet". Both tracks were recorded as B-sides during the sessions for the band's new album "Palimpsest".

The new single from Sacramento-based alternative metal outfit Deftones entitled "Ohms" which is taken from their upcoming album of the same name which is due for release on 25th September.

The new single from Swedish gothic metal outfit Draconian entitled "The Sacrificial Flame" which is taken from their upcoming album "Under a Godless Veil" which is due for release on 30th October.

The new Metallica single which is taken from their upcoming "S&M2" live release with San Francisco Symphony Orchestra which is due for release tomorrow.

The new single from French deathgrind outfit Benighted entitled "Serve To Deserve".

I wasn't aware that they were visible until I published them here. That one's not ready yet so I'll make them secret until they're ready in future.

No Mercy - "Widespread Bloodshed/Love Runs Red" (1987)

This record seems to be heavily overrated, perhaps mainly due to the fact that Suicidal Tendencies re-recorded some of this material after No Mercy broke up. I just don't see the attraction personally as I find the rough & ready production & Mike Muir's out of key vocals to be pretty tough to stomach.

Some very unpolished Venice beach thrash metal featuring several members of Suicidal Tendencies. For fans of Suicidal Tendencies, Nuclear Assault & Slayer.

No Mercy - "Widespread Bloodshed/Love Runs Red" (1987)

This is essentially a Suicidal Tendencies side project that focuses more on a traditional thrash metal sound than a crossover one. It seems to be quite highly regarded but I can't justify those sort of opinions as the weak & noisy production & Mike Muir's terrible vocal performance are very hard to see past. Some of this material was re-recorded by Suicidal Tendencies following the separation of No Mercy so perhaps that's where the love stems from. I'm not a fan of Suicidal Tendencies' "Join The Army" album from the same year either but I'd probably take it over this one. For fans of Suicidal Tendencies, Nuclear Assault & Slayer.

3/5

I like this concept of a playlist suggestions thread in the forums as I think having a playlist that reflects the clan's current listening habits is a nice idea. I'll start these today.

Also, I've been programming these playlists in a very specific way thus far & I don't thing it's been working very well. As a former DJ, I always used to program my sets to slowly build in intensity as the tracklisting progresses i.e. start from the lighter & least intense track & increase the intensity as the set progresses. That way there aren't any flat sections where the listener gets bored & they continually find themselves being drawn further into the music. It also ensures that there's no major drop in intensity from one track to the next which is a really bad thing for a dancefloor if you don't place & execute well. Unfortunately with metal it's meaning that the opening tracks aren't really grabbing the listener so I'm gonna change approaches for the start of the playlists moving forwards by starting with some of the bigger tunes & pulling it back for a slow build after I've grabbed the listener's attention. Check out the new playlist for The Pit that will go up shortly for an example.

A stunning progressive metal instrumental from one of the greatest talents the 1980's neoclassical guitar shred era produced.

I gave "Perpetual Burn" a few revisits today & found that I still quite enjoy it. I actually bought it on CD way back in the very early 1990's & was blown away by Becker's technique at the time, especially for someone so young. I do have to admit that I've never been particularly comfortable with his neoclassicisms though as they often sound like exercises more than actual music & even delve into Xmas carol schmaltz at times (see the disappointing "Air" for example). Thankfully a good half of "Perpetual Burn" takes a more traditional progressive metal approach & it's this material that really interests me. The album highlights are certainly when Jason goes for melody over technique & the crunchier metal sections are also among the more exciting moments so fans of Marty Friedman, Cacophony & Yngwie Malmsteen should be all over this record. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I slightly prefer it to Yngwie's highly celebrated "Rising Force" debut.

3.5/5

Thanks for the feedback Xephyr. I like the idea too. In fact, in the long-term I was actually thinking that the responsibility for putting the monthly playlists together could sit with the senior members of each clan who could coordinate it with their fellow clan members in whatever way they felt fit as long as it covered the entire subgenre spectrum that the clan encompasses & drew upon the whole history of metal rather than just being from a specific era. This is because I see these as a way to a) draw in new members from a wide array of backgrounds & experience levels & b) I'd like people to hear something fresh & new every time they attend the Academy. 

I notice you haven't rated this one yet Sonny. I'm keen to hear your thoughts on it as I've always thought it was a very solid piece of Bay Area thrash.

Seriously, how good is the main riff from this chuggy Bay Area thrash anthem??

Model 500 - "Night Drive (Thru-Babylon) / Time Space Transmat / No UFO's" 12" (1985)

Dusted this old dancefloor bomb off for a loungeroom dance-off with my one & four year-old daughters this morning. It was one of earliest Detroit techno releases from the legendary Juan Atkins (i.e. the creator of techno music). The two tracks on the A side might as well be identical but they're both totally killer examples of electro-tinged acid techno & I used to pull them both out on occasion whilst DJing in underground techno clubs back in the 2000's. The B side is a remix of Juan's classic "No UFO's" that never did much for me. It's overlong & peters out quite badly during the second half.

4/5

I agree with you Xephyr.

How about the Pagan black metal & Depressive black metal subgenres? Different enough to warrant their own subgenres?

I've got one for people more qualified than I to debate. Do we really need to differentiate Celtic metal & Medieval folk metal from your traditional folk metal variety? Are they really that different that they need their own subgenres? Are there people that only like one or the other?

How about depressive power metal or blackened funk metal?

By the way Ben, goregrind is definitely a different beast to traditional grindcore. It has its own attributes & deserves its own category in my opinion.

I would say no it's not Andi. I don't think there's much correlation between the style I'm referring to & the likes of Atheist, Death or Opeth. Gorguts came up with a completely new sound with "Obscura" & that style has been championed by a number of acts since. Dissonant death metal is just as likely to repel progressive & tech death fans as it is to appeal to them so i feel it warrants it's own subgenre.  Meshuggah & The Ocean don't base their entire sound around dissonance in the same way. Not by a long shot.

Sonny, I agree that dissonant black metal is a thing too. Particularly in the wake of Deathspell Omega.

Andi & Saxy, I'd recommend Cult Of Luna's "Somewhere Along The Highway" as a premium example of the post-metal sound.

Spectacular Swedish post-metal for fans of Isis, Neurosis & The Ocean.

I've given "Somewhere Along The Highway" a few revisits over the last two days & I'm subsequently going to retract my above statements. I think it's a genuinely classic post-metal release that possesses enormous dynamics & genuine beauty. It doesn't really belong here in The Fallen if I'm honest though. In fact, it's a prime example of why the atmospheric sludge metal label is completely redundant as there's very little doubt that this has a lot more to do with post-rock than it does with sludge metal.

I generally find that the psychedelic doom releases are tagged as stoner metal although I've never agreed with it personally. My concept of stoner metal is a lot more groovy than doom metal & I don't find it to be half as appealing.

A track from the new  "Fracmont" album from Swiss death/thrash outfit Messiah which is due out on 11th September.

The new single from LA sludge metallers Thou.

Amenra - "Mass VI Live"

I think the common consensus online has been to label the traditional black metal sound as "raw black metal" but I'm not sure that this is an accurate term for all releases that would fall into that category. "Old school death metal" also has its issues as it hints that the release is actually old. The  "classic" prefix isn't perfect either mind you as it indicates that the release is just that i.e. a classic. I don't think we're gonna find a perfect solution there so we'll just need to go with the consensus. My vote goes for "classic".

I've got a few other suggestions over the RYM subgenre list too:

I'd like to see these subgenres included as they're clearly required: progressive death metal, progressive thrash metal, blackened thrash, symphonic death metal, perhaps even blackened death metal & death/thrash?

I think the "traditional doom metal" genre tag is a definite thing. It's just that the use of it is so inconsistent that it makes it hard for people to understand (see Candlemass' first couple of records which are pure doom metal but seem to draw the traditional tag almost unanimously or the fact that most traditional doom bands sound exactly like Black Sabbath yet Sabbath is somehow exempt from the tag. Essentially I see traditional doom metal as a form of doom metal that is diluted by other subgenres like heavy metal, hard rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock, progressive rock, etc. but still has the essence of the doom atmosphere. But is it different from your pure doom metal model to command its own subgenre? I don't think so to be honest. I'd be happy for us to make a call on this as a group.

I'd like to see the "atmospheric sludge metal" subgenre abandoned as it's essentially the same thing as post-metal.

Do we include NWOBHM as a subgenre? It will mean that releases from that movement have the potential to not come up in heavy metal searches &, despite the fact that the New Wave definitely has its own unique attributes & characteristics, it also covers such a diverse range of sounds from speed metal to traditional doom metal. I'd suggest omitting it.

I'm still not buying it to be honest. The only reason I said that "Into The Pandemonium" fit the term "avant-garde" at the time of release was because the dictionary definition the word is "new and experimental ideas and methods in art, music, or literature; favouring or introducing new and experimental ideas and methods." But if that was all there was to it then Metallica, Helloween & Napalm Death would also be referred to as avant-garde metal & they're obviously not. That's because for something to be thought of as truly avant-garde in metal music it has to not only tread new ground by combining multiple influences but those influences need to be a challenge to accept. If a sound works too fluently then the term becomes less appropriate. I firmly believe that Celtic Frost just created a new subgenre here (i.e. gothic metal) in the same way that Black Sabbath created one. It doesn't sound as artistically challenging as a genuinely avant-garde release like Bubblegum Octopus' "The Album Formerly Known as 8-Legged Dance Moves" by a long stretch so I'd much rather keep the term for records that truly deserve it. I mean "Mexican Radio" is simply a poppy heavy metal track & "Inner Sanctum", "Babylon Fell" & "Caress Into Oblivion" are essentially very similar to Frost's previous thrash metal works. "One In Their Pride" is a one-off industrial piece influenced by New Order but it was nothing unusual for a band to include a drastic change of direction track as an interlude to break things up a bit. Black Sabbath were doing that back in 1970's after all. The rest of the album all fits in with the modern understanding of gothic metal in my opinion. There is plenty that reminds me very much of Tiamat & Paradise Lost here. So in summary we have a mixed bag of sounds but not much that genuinely challenges my ears for a label which is generally the case with truly avant-garde metal.

And on the topic of historical context, I think that it takes time for a subgenre's sound to develop but once it has it remains fairly stable. I actually don't see us changing our stance on what constitutes death metal, black metal, etc. over time as much as people seem to indicate. We simply saw those sounds developing over a period of five to ten years with a number of bands being hybrids before they settled on an outcome but once the final article was settled upon their definition has stayed the same ever since. Avant-garde metal is admittedly more of a catch-all than a legitimate subgenre so I don't think it can be referred to in as definitive a way but there were releases that came before "Into The Pandemonium" that are still much more appropriately tagged with the avant-garde label (like 1982's self-tiled "Warning" record I referred to earlier) & that's because they sound a lot stranger & challenge our concepts of music in a theoretical sense & I think that's the crucial element here. I just can't get my head around the relevance of labeling a release as "avant-garde metal" when there are other releases that sound the same as it that aren't labeled the same way. The only reason to smack the label on in the first place is to give people an idea of what they're likely to hear & if I said this release is gothic thrash metal it's a far more accurate description than avant-garde thrash metal in my opinion. I've always thought that & my opinion hasn't changed over time.

Look, by the dictionary definition of the term "avant-garde" this record was certainly a decent fit at the time. But I think it's important to remember what we're trying to achieve with the genre tagging here at Metal Academy & that's to create an environment where it's easy to identify music that's in line with your unique tastes & preferences. For that reason, I think it's important that we use the modern understandings of metal terminology. Also, I've always regarded truly avant-garde music as sounding a bit off-putting & strange. The self-titled debut album from German band Warning is a fine example of that as you never quite feel comfortable with their incredible amalgamation of doom metal with progressive electronic & synth pop sounds even though you really enjoy the experience. I don't get that feeling with "Into The Pandemonium" & I never did. A lot of that has to do with the fact that Celtic Frost are so damn successful with their experimentation here. The vast majority of the material sounds so fluent & fully realised so I never feel that uncomfortable feeling that I associate with truly avant-garde music as opposed to simply ambitious, experimental or progressive music.

Regardless of all of that, if I think that "Into The Pandemonium" often sounds like gothic metal period Tiamat then both acts should be tagged the same regardless of the era they come from. These tags are purely meant as an indication of whether someone will like the music contained on the release or not so it's best for there to be standardization across musical history.

P.s. Yes I'm one of those people that believes Venom & Mercyful Fate are not even close to black metal. Have been since the late 1980's too.

One of the more traditional European thrash metal outings from a highly experimental Celtic Frost record.

Celtic Frost - "Into The Pandemonium" (1987)

A genuinely ambitious & interesting departure from the standard European thrash metal model that saw Tom G. Warrior & co. experimenting with a number of musically disparate genres (such as gothic rock, new wave, synth pop, industrial, etc.) to great artistic effect. It may be the point that some old-school thrashers got off the boat but I've always found it to be a consistently intriguing & engaging listen, despite not being quite as rewarding as most of Frost's earlier work.

4/5

A ripper of a second wave-inspired black metal number from these blackened thrash exponents from Athens, Greece.