Sonny's Forum Replies

Unbelievably downtrodden, disconsolate & emotionally engaging English doom metal for fans of 40 Watt Sun, Pallbearer & My Dying Bride.

No album better encapsulates the essence of doom metal than this, in my opinion.

My favourite album of all time right here...

Promo track, Nature is the Devil's Church, for Dread Sovereigns new album released today:

FFO Gates of Slumber, Grand Magus etc.

Not played this album in ages. The title track is still amazing.

Panopticon - Kentucky (2012)

I have grown really fond of this record in recent weeks (think I picked up on it from a track on the North playlist the other month).  It is such a well composed album that deals with a very emotive subject very sensibly in terms of how the folk, bluegrass and black metal elements are deployed to tell the story.  Need to find time to get a review done on this so will hold off rating at this stage.

My favourite Panopticon album and one of my favourite atmo-black records. A metal album dealing with a labour dispute is a rare thing indeed, but then again Austin Lunn is a rare individual in the world of black metal.

Got to admit that this is one of the least bad power metal albums I've heard. There's enough traditional heavy metal here to attract my ears, although I must confess that at times I did find my attention wandering. I won't be returning to it any time soon, but, unusually for power metal, I did get through the whole album in one go. 3/5

SilentScream213, following your comments about lyrics in metal, I think you would really enjoy the lyrical content of M.S.W.'s Obliviosus. They deal with the negative effects on the family of his brother's longtime heroin addiction and are extremely personal and affecting.

As far as the claim that there are no great metal albums from the seventies, I guess this depends when you got into music. It's no surprise that I am an older metal head (shortly due to enter my sixtieth year - Fuck!!!), so I will obviously view records I grew up with differently than someone looking back three or four decades with no temporal context. I had good times with good friends listening to those records (some of whom are no longer with us), hanging out, going to gigs together, partying, so they are bound to resonate  with me more on a personal level. I think one of the great tragedies of the internet age, streaming and personal audio equipment is that lack of a shared experience with other like-minded travellers through life and whilst I concede that there is nothing wrong with listening to music impartially, I am unable to do so - context is everything in my mind and I admire those who can critique music without bias, unfortunately I'm not one of them.

I would, however, be first to admit that seventies' metal has more of a rock component, but I love 70's rock as well - my favourite musical year is 1971 - and I make no apologies for it. If you think you get to death metal, black metal, doom metal or whatever your metal genre of choice is, without those albums, then you are wrong. It's all interconnected - it's evolution, man.

This opinion harkens back to the first two to ever appear in this thread, written by Sonny:

1. Number of the Beast was a serious let down after the immense Killers.

2. Piece of Mind is the best Maiden album with Bruce Dickinson. Seventh Son.. is pretentious shite.

Even though he has enjoyed one of the Bruce Dickinson albums, I can see how immense both of you think of the albums with Paul Di'Anno. Of course, nothing wrong with that, both singers are probably some of the best in metal!

Just to clarify, I really enjoy most of Maiden's albums with Bruce, except Brave New World and SSoaSS - Number of the Beast included. I merely prefer Di'Anno's punkier, more aggressive vocal style and was very disappointed at the time, when he and Maiden parted ways. I just happen to like Piece Of Mind more than the other Bruce albums and really don't get the deification of Seventh Son.. as it doesn't fire me like other Maiden albums.

Lyrics that make me think are good, lyrics that make me feel are best. Any song with lyrics that manage to choke me up is pretty immediately at least a 4.5/5 for me.

That's a great point and one I can wholeheartedly get behind. The lyrics and their heartfelt delivery are probably the main reason Warning's Watching From A Distance is my favourite album - they get me every time.

1. Lyrics matter. Bad lyrics ruin good stuff for me, and they always equate into a rating unless I don't understand the language (even then I will translate if possible). Bad lyrics are no different than bad guitar to me. 

Quoted SilentScream213

Interesting comment and not one you hear bandied around in metal circles much. For me, the vocals matter a huge amount, not so much the lyrics, although really cheesy lyrics make me cringe (the new Briton Rites album, for example, is lyrically awful). I would be genuinely interested to know, what do you look for specifically in lyrical content that would cause a big boost in your rating of an album and conversely what would deserve a docking?

6. Iron Maiden were at their best when Paul Di'Anno was on vocals.

Thanks, Vinny. I refer you to point #1 on my original post.

Let me guess...when you called Death "f***ing average"?

No, that one is merely hyperbole.

I think as far as 'The Big Four" goes and arguments about who should or shouldn't be considered as members of this exclusive club: This was a term that was in use very early on in the development of thrash metal and at the time those four bands were literally the biggest four thrash bands around. Testament were quite late to the party, The Legacy coming out after Reign in Blood, Master of Puppets, Peace Sells and Among the Living so were never in with a shout of being considered in The Big Four. Time has dictated otherwise and revealed their consistent back catalogue to merit inclusion, but The Big Four is like the Mount Rushmore of thrash and will remain as those four for time immemorial.

Despite all these differences of opinion, which I was hoping for when beginning this thread, please remember that what unites us is more important than what divides us. Go to RYM and read their board's, there you will find people who think every single album on this site is shit and we are all idiots for enjoying them.

Finally, I must 'fess up that one of my original points is not actually my opinion and I included it in the hope of getting a reaction. Can you guess which it was?

So it looks like you're quite selective when it comes to classic albums from bands like Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Slayer, and possibly Judas Priest and Anthrax. You also seem to think Devin Townsend, Pantera, and Death are overrated despite being masters of their respective genres. And you dislike genres like avant-garde metal, post-metal, and gothic metal. Your opinions might not be similar to what others tend to believe (which is kind of the point of this thread), and we might not see eye-to-eye on many things, but like I said in one of my threads, respecting what people think is key!

Hey, what can I say, I'm just a flawed individual!

For the record, I am never shocked by other people's opinions... only by the fact that they don't realise they are wrong!!

OK, I shall likewise respond:

1. Disagree, but you're right - that is an unpopular opinion!

2. Better than Never Say Die maybe, but better than an album that contains Gypsy, You Won't Change Me and Dirty Women? I must strongly object, sir!

3. In all honesty, I don't rate any of Sabbath's live albums anywhere near as much as the Heaven and Hell album Live From Radio City Music Hall.

4. Agree - and Falling off the Edge of the World is the best Dio era Sabbath track.

5. Also agree. It's actually a bit all over the place in my opinion.

And for an added bonus: Ozzy Osborne only made one good album after he left Sabbath and that was Blizzard of Ozz.

Just to correct myself on my own point 3. I meant to write Painkiller, not Defenders of the Faith (that's about number six). I much prefer Sad Wings, Sin After Sin and Stained Class that they put out before they consciously tried to become the biggest metal band in the world and sold out. I'll just illustrate what I mean - on the Stained Class tour they charged about a quid for a programme. On the next tour less than a year later, after Take on the World had been on Top of the Pops, metal was growing in popularity and a load of middle-class kids got their parents to take them to the gig, the cheeky bastards wanted to charge £2.50. I said "fuck off" and never bought another concert programme again. So for being such a bunch of lousy sell-outs I stand by this claim that their best albums were when they cared about the music, not the money and fame and started fleecing their fans.

I would say that if you are surprised that a metal musician holds right-wing views or isn't a beacon of righteousness, then you are extremely naive. This is a bit of a thorny topic however and I can see why some have problems with it. The Arts are littered with reprehensible individuals, so where do you draw the line? I have never been a fan of celebrity culture anyway and am not particularly interested in the lives of musicians or actors so pay little attention to their (usually self-important) views.

Similarly to Ben, if I love the music, then I will still listen to it whilst acknowledging that the person or persons involved in it may be of dubious character. I am no big fan of cancel culture and have no desire to become involved in that whole self-righteous wave sweeping our world. 

"Let he who is without sin..." and all that!

I agree that there is probably very little you need to change, Xephyr as your reviews are always very well-written and give a good idea of what to expect from the release.

As a non-musician I find it difficult to talk about the technical aspects of a release, so I tend to focus on the atmosphere and emotion of a release (these are the aspects that interest me anyway) rather than chord progressions, song structures or what key the song is in.

I am no great writer, but I do enjoy it. However, I don't always feel the need or inclination to write an essay about a release, so often throw in single paragraph reviews which hopefully will at least fulfil Daniel's hopes to get a flavour of a release. I know some people don't approve, but surely it's better than a release having nothing written about it and to be perfectly honest , I just switch off to really long-ass reviews as they either get too technical, stray from the point or just become boring.

Finally, I also like to get an idea of how the reviewer relates to the release and really enjoy reviews that have a personal touch and may relay some interesting tale of metal fandom that doesn't really says much about the release, but a lot about the writer and their life as a metalhead.

It's a cover of an Edgar Winter track from 1973, so not really thrash metal at all. Still a good track, though.

Hi Ben, please add Atavist's latest album III:Absolution.

There are certainly film scores that I love - Gladiator, Blade Runner, Legend to name but three and there are some computer game scores I quite like (although not many I'll admit) such as Skyrim. My problem isn't so much that the Doom soundtrack is a computer game score (it is a score and not a soundtrack), it's that I genuinely found it unbearable. It just gave me a splitting headache, which considering some of the shit I listen to, is some achievement! And worst of all, IT'S NOT EVEN FUCKING DOOM!!

I don't really remember their earlier stuff that way. As I remember it it was quite shouty, but maybe I'll revisit them when I'm at a bit of a loose end. Or I may just go back to Smashing Pumpkins instead.

December Feature Releases Verdict:

MDB - The Dreadful Hours: My favourite MDB full length 4/5

Deftones - Ohms: I didn't go into this with any relish at all. I had a very good friend who used to push their albums onto me (sadly now passed), despite the fact I couldn't do with their brand of metal at all - I hate White Pony and the self-titled intensely and haven't listened to the band at all for well over a decade. But I do quite like Smashing Pumpkins and this sounds like Billy Corgan & co gone metal, so finally Deftones have made a record I actually quite like! 3.5/5

Incantation - Diabolical Conquest: Brilliant, has become one of my all-time favourite death metal releases 5/5

Oranssi Pazuzu - Mestarin kynsi: Amazing, cementing OP's position as one of the most original metal bands around. 4.5/5

Deathspell Omega - Chaining the Katechon: Deathspell's music is all about acute angles and sharp edges that never allow the listener to really get comfortable and never more so than on this single track epic. Terrific. 4/5

Testament - The Legacy: The riffs are classic thrash chuggers and Alex Sloknik's solos are vibrant and electric, guaranteed to make your neck hairs stand on end! Chuck Billy's vocals are great, particularly for a thrash singer, with a versatility few vocalists in the genre could equal. A great example of 80's thrash. 4.5/5

Sunami - Sunami EP: As a fan of hardcore punk I must admit I quite enjoyed this short and bitter EP. 3.5/5

Mick Gordon - Doom: Horrible. I'm sorry but I hated this. If a two-hour computer game soundtrack is the best a clan can come up with, then I guess it's not for me. 1/5

Gamma Ray - whatever!?: Sorry, I just couldn't be bothered with two hours of power metal, especially after a two-hour computer game soundtrack. After all there are limits to what I will endure for The Academy!

I'm a big fan of hardcore punk like Sick of it All and Minor Threat and the first Suicidal Tendencies album is one of my all-time favourites, so I quite enjoyed this - far better than almost any metalcore I've heard before. Benefits, as most hardcore-based releases do, from it's short runtime as that level of intensity is hard to maintain for extended periods. 3.5/5

Ah.. I've deleted both ratings then re-rated it and it seems ok now.

Could you add In the Company of Serpents (US) and Yatra's All Is Lost album please Ben?

Wow, that's an oldie, but goodie!!

And yes, OP sound massively like Hawkwing nowadays don't they.

I got turned onto this earlier this week, some real heavy pre-1970 shit:

Hi Ben, please add the new Dö EP, Black Hole Mass.

New album from Briton Rites, a decade after their previous, debut release.

BR feature veteran doom vocalist Phil Swanson of Hour of 13, Seamount, Vestal Claret, Atlantean Codex and more.

FFO classic doom metal.

Hi Ben could you please add the new albums from Cardianl Wyrm (Devotionals) and Briton Rites (Occulte Fantastique)?

Just caught on to Onirik's latest release and have spent most of the weekend with that so far.  But also dusted off some old vinyl (second hand purchases) that wouldn't play on my old vinyl player - because the player was shite - but now seem to be okay, so last night I got through Winger's self-titled (shut up) with a few whisky and cokes in me and sang along like a teenage girl!  Onirik and Winger in the same day, what an eclectic bastard I am.

That Onirik album is a seriously great record... erm Winger, not so much!

That is an incredible amount of work Ben and your dedication is amazing. Thanks 25,000 times for all your stellar efforts to provide your members with a satisfying experience.

In these crazy times we are all living in, it is fantastic to have a place where you can just "hang out" and shoot the shit with like- (or sometimes unlike-) minded individuals about music, nothing more and nothing less. No pandemic, no mentally unhinged politicians, just talking with (and hopefully listening to) others about something we all love. Many, many thanks to both you, Ben and Daniel for all the hours you both must spend to provide this all for us.

Best wishes to both of you and your families for Xmas and the New Year and also to all the Academy members.

I didn't mean to imply that any of us only listen to Metal, but I'm interested as to why we keep returning to it, as our involvement in MA suggests that we have more than a passing affection for it. I know numerous people who have been metalheads who just lost interest, so presumably it doesn't speak to something in those people the same way it does with us. Personally, I am a massive delta blues, prog rock, punk and post-punk, psychedelic rock, folk, ritual ambient and (don't laugh) opera fan (that's why I despise symphonic metal, it really doesn't stack up against the real thing). Yet it's here I spend my time, wanting to talk about metal not those other styles.

It's an interesting point you make Daniel about the cerebral side appealing to you because, for me,  it's the primal emotional punch that really hooks me. When I listen to metal I want to FEEL it. I think that's why I prefer genres like funeral doom and black metal, cavernous death metal and neck-breaking thrash over the more technical stuff. I tend to do my cerebral exercises whilst reading. In fact, now I think about it, it's probably true of most music I listen to - I dislike jazz immensely, but I adore New Orleans jazz, I love the old blues guys like Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf, but blues rock often leaves me cold as it just feels soulless and too 'clever' next to those guys.

I think a point most of us do agree on is that metal is an outsider's music. I am one contrary motherfucker (just ask my old man) and I've always seen metal as a "fuck you" to the norm. That is why I hate any attempt at commercialisation of metal. The worst crime any musician can commit musically, in my view, is insincerity and although there are (an increasing) number of fakes in the metalverse, I would say less so than in most popular styles of music. 

Also a great point about the camaraderie amongst genuine Metal fans. It's weird, but even though we may have disagreements about the merits of certain aspects of the metal world amongst ourselves, should it be attacked by "outsiders" we all rally round and leap to it's defence like a pack of angry wolves defending their den.

Anyway, whatever our reasons, here we are and here we'll stay!

Hey Vinny, it's great to hear a story with some positivity coming out of what has been a completely f***ed up year and I am genuinely made up to hear it. Personally I have had to put up with tinnitus  for years, due as much to working in a foundry/rolling mill back in the Eighties when H&S rules were much slacker as it is to standing in front of the bass bins at Motörhead gigs. The consequence for me is that I tend to listen to too much music as it disguises the constant hissing. But I completely recognise where you are coming from when you say you had trouble retaining the music you were listening to, almost as if some connection was lost. Your comment about not trying to keep up with every new release really resonated with me as I am guilty as charged. My theory for this is that like some emaciated smack-head I keep chasing the high of that first time hearing Paranoid, Creeping Death, I Am the Black Wizards or whatever shit it was that blew my mind back in the day and I attack every new album with the relish of a junkie with his first bag of the day, only to be left disappointed more often than not. So, I have decided that I too will abandon, at least for now, this constant chasing of that musical dragon and try to focus on fewer new releases and maybe try to reconnect with some of that music that inspired me so much back in the day. Thanks Vinny for sharing your story and maybe reigniting something I thought I had lost, I am genuinely grateful.

Just read your review Daniel and it absolutely nails it as to what makes this album so f***ing awesome and expresses it far more eloquently than I ever could. Your quote "The intentionally sludgy & mossy production, the gorgeously muddy guitar tone, the monstrous bass tone, the loose-ish performances that ooze of underground credibility, the ultra-deep & repetitive vocals" sum up exactly what I love most when I do listen to death metal. Unlike yourself, I am not a dyed-in-the -wool death metal fan, being more attracted to doom and black metal for my extreme metal fixes, but this is exactly the sort of record that appeals to what I do love about the genre and it's looser, filthier side. 

Ben, could you add LA's Merciless Death please.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ben's assertion that the issue lies with laziness around genre descriptions (particularly on RYM) and the fact that any metal with folk elements becomes tagged automatically as folk metal or any Viking-themed metal is therefore Viking Metal. The question then is, do you rely on genre tagging from RYM and try to fix it through the Hall, in which case maybe MA needs it's own, less ambiguous genre descriptions, or do you find another source for the initial genre designations?

The Manowar / Bathory connection is also very similar to the Black Sabbath / nearly every single stoner doom band ever who claim the Sabbs as an influence connection where Sabbath are heavy metal and all those others are stoner or doom metal, even those who sound exactly like Sabbath.

The wild and weird world of genre definitions, frustrating though it is, is certainly a great source of debate in the Metalverse though isn't it?

Folk Metal is another of the myriad sub-genres I am not particularly clear about. There are a huge number of black metal releases with substantial folk parts that often get tagged as folk metal on RYM (particularly as secondaries), but I guess what you're referring to is the out and out folk metal that, to my ears sounds like it would be more at home nestling next to power metal in The Guardians. Viking Metal I'm not so sure about as most of my experience with that comes from Bathory and early Enslaved, which I have no problem with sitting in The North.

I have no idea about trance metal's proper placing as, being an old, out of touch m-f, I'm not even sure what it is. Maybe you could suggest a couple of the top examples for me to check out. As for Nintendocore & trancecore I didn't even know they existed until I read your post. Please, what the fuck is Nintendocore and whatever you do, keep it the fuck away from me!! Whatever next, McDonaldscore, Nikecore? So metal has now officially become a corporate whore (I kinda knew it anyway, but that is ridiculous).

Finally, grindcore sits perfectly naturally in The Horde as far as I can tell.

January suggestions:

HeXen: Gas Chamber from State of Insurgency (2008)

Blood Tsunami: One Step Closer to the Grave from Grand Feast for Vultures (2009)

Slayer: Chemical Warfare from Haunting the Chapel EP (1984) (Spotify: Live Undead / Haunting the Chapel)

Suggestions for January:

Thorr's Hammer: Troll from Dommedagsnatt  (1996)

Saint Vitus: Bitter Truth from Mournful Cries (1988)

Burning Witch: Sacred Predictions from Crippled Lucifer (1998)

For January I'm only going to go with a single suggestion as it's quite a long one (and not just the title):

Ek sá halr at Hóars veðri hǫsvan serk Hrísgrísnis bar from Árstíðir Lifsins' latest album, Saga á tveim tungum II: Eigi fjǫll né firðir.

However, if you need to fill a couple of minutes I wouldn't mind hearing Marduk's Panzer Division Marduk from the album of the same name.

I agree with you Daniel that the vocals alone merit a place in The North, I merely posed the question to see what others thought. It is probably an album that is at the very limit of what could rightly be included that clan though (along with a number of doom metal bands that utilise black metal vocals, but have few other BM influences).

I must also defer to you on what constitutes post-metal, as it is a genre I have only recently become acquainted with to any degree. I do enjoy some of it very much, but that I have listened to kind of reminds me of 70's progressive electronic music in that it's soundscapes feel quite passive and engender atmospheres to sink into rather than actively engage with. (I'm probably not expressing what I'm trying to say very well here, but as I say, my experience with the genre is limited and I defer to those with more expertise on the subject).

A direct quote from my review of some months ago - "In fact, I hear very little black metal on here other than in the vocals. " So I absolutely agree with you on this one Daniel. The question then is, does only having a vocal relationship with black metal constitute a strong enough case for inclusion in the North. When I refer to them as a black metal band, I do so in the same way I would refer to Enslaved, as a band that has developed from black metal beginnings that still retain a vestigial link back to their origins. In both band's cases I think it is also fair to say that even in the early days they were already stretching beyond the genre's confines.

Something I did refer to in my review that I would like an opinion on is that I believe this album exhibits a huge influence from UK space rock pioneers Hawkwind. I don't know how familiar you are with them, but listen to Choose Your Masques from 1982 and then Uusi Teknokratica and tell me there's no relationship. Also the driving rhythms overlaid by electronics is classic Hawkwind.

I can't help thinking that if one black metal band can break out of the scene and gain some kind of mainstream acclaim, then it is going to be Oranssi Pazuzu. I believe the avant-garde tag for this release is grossly misleading and I would argue that rather, this is true progressive music (be it metal or not) that is born of minds similar to true visionaries of the progressive rock era like Robert Fripp and Peter Hammil, but with all the armoury of modern music-making at their disposal. I understand why you would want to tag this as post-metal, but personally when I think of post-metal I think of somewhat passive music and this is anything but passive.

A lot of shit is talked about a lot of bands being original in metal when, let's be brutally honest here, they really aren't that much, but in OP's case this is a true statement. This, along with 2016's Värähtelijä and the Waste of Space Orchestra collaboration with Dark Buddha Rising, are three of the finest, most original albums to emerge from the metal scene in the past decade and should already have cemented the band's legendary status.

Ben, please add Germany's Sacred Gate.

Unlike about 90% of metal fans (it seems) I'm not really keen on fantasy art, although I do love good sci-fi artwork, so probably The Infinite would be one. Natural landscapes are also a big favourite, especially mountains, snow, forests and water, so The North obviously. The melancholic aspect of a lot of The Fallen artwork also has much appeal, so I would make that my third. Also any clan that has Mariusz Lewandowski artwork!

DsO are another band that I haven't listened to anything like enough. Obviously I'm familiar with Paracletus (everybody should be, let's face it) but other than their latest I am largely ignorant of the rest of their output. On the strength of this and Paracletus I obviously need to remedy this situation. Deathspell's music (at least that that I have heard) is all about acute angles and sharp edges that never allow the listener to really get comfortable and never more so than on this single track epic. Apparently, the Katechon is that that prevents the world falling into chaos and disorder and a bulwark against Armageddon, hence the chaining of such would result in just those things (which would probably amuse the DsO guys no end!) Unfortunately it seems that DsO are another band who have at least one member with some quite reprehensible views and that is always disappointing, but judging them solely on musical output, they are a challenging and interesting listen in the main and a band that any fan of extreme metal should be familiar with.

I've just posted a review and I've got to say, I have been absolutely blown away by just how awesome this album is. I have lots of reservations about certain aspects of death metal, but when it gets it right, as it most definitely does here, then it can be truly mind-blowing. I'm already touting this as one of my five star albums after only handful of listens. Another winner from me from the Featured Releases, after the Shining and Neptunian Maximalism albums from last month I'm beginning to feel a bit spoiled!

From this month's Horde featured release. The bass sound on this track is f***ing insane!!

I agree, the gothic metal aspect is nothing like as obvious here as in a lot of gothic death doom (and is better for it!) It's been mentioned before, but I think there is a case for separating true gothic metal from other metal sub-genres that may have some gothic atmosphere, such as death doom or black metal. At best these should only have gothic as a secondary genre, as they would say on RYM.