Sonny's Forum Replies

Haven't you heard Värähtelijä either Daniel? Damn, get on that one soon as you can, it was my AOTY for 2016. 

Shit, I hope it's better than that cover, Daniel!

You are right Xephyr that there is a big difference between a split and a collaboration, look no further than the superb Bell Witch / Aerial Ruin collaboration, The Stygian Bough which is one of my favourite albums of the year. A collaboration does tend to be more coherent because the bands involved are working on a common piece. Splits however, are often used to showcase different bands separately and one band that is less familiar can get exposure on the back of another. The Nechochwen / Panopticon split is just such a beast due to the critical acclaim Austin Lunn has garnered over recent years. Because the two bands usually work independently on a split it can have mixed results, which is why I ask how people think of them. Sometimes the bands complement each other really well and others are not necessarily a good fit. Maybe the split is a format that has had it's time, but I don't think so because, as I say, there have been some belters this year in my opinion.

Thanks for that Daniel. For the first time this month I listened to nearly all the featured releases and although I can't honestly say I enjoyed them all, it was an interesting undertaking nonetheless and one I am hoping to continue going forward, so hopefully I'll be able to come up with something to contribute to the discussions, especially regarding stuff I probably wouldn't normally listen to.

Just out of interest Daniel, whilst going through this month's featured releases, I was wondering what your criteria was for selection as it seems like quite a challenging task.

1. Black Sabbath - "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" (1973) 5/5

I can't in good conscience have any other of these nine albums at #1 as this has been a favourite of mine for well over forty years now. A proto-prog metal classic as the Sabs stretched themselves a bit and added Rick Wakeman on keyboards.

2. Shining - "V - Halmstad" (2007) 4.5/5

Despite not being a huge fan of Shining previously I was knocked out by this album. I found a profound connection to it on a personal level. Emotional.

3. Neptunian Maximalism - "Eons" (2020) 4.5/5

The thought of a two-hour avant-jazz album had me positively sweating with dread. But this isn't that album at all I'm absolutely thrilled to report. Yes, sure there are avant-jazz elements present, obviously, but I consider them merely icing, the heart and soul of this album is the percussion and it's ritualistic and tribal rhythms that call to something buried deep in the human psyche. I'm a big fan of ritual ambient artists like Draugurinn and Forndom, but this is on a different level completely. I must admit though that I did wonder how it became featured on a metal website, until the third section at least where it's drone metal credentials kick in. I still have some issue with the solely jazz sections and it is a long album, but these are minor gripes as this is something truly outside my comfort zone that I absolutely love. The trouble with it is, it has made me an unfaithful music listener now - I'm listening to something else, but I'm thinking of this while I'm doing so!

4. Disillusion - "Back To Times Of Splendor" (2004) 3.75/5

I dislike melo-death intensely and prog metal to me means Dream Theater-style musical wankery, so I didn't approach this with much relish. But, it is actually pretty decent, albeit with a couple of provisos. I'm still not sold on the melo-death sections particularly, although they are far from the worst I've ever heard and, secondly, the vocalist causes me a few issues. I think it was Vinny who said that the vocalist is stealing a living, it appears he's stealing it off Serj Tankian and Corey Taylor. I actually don't mind the SOAD sounding parts, but I hate that Corey Taylor-like melo-death vocal style and here it's especially horrible. But that aside, musically I enjoyed huge swathes of this, it reminds me of a heavier version of Polish prog-rock outfit Riverside, a modern prog band I particularly enjoy. Vocals apart, it's well performed and varied with some decent prog songwriting, so I'm gonna call this a (qualified) success.

5. Undeath - "Lesions Of A Different Kind" (2020) 3.5/5

Solid, if somewhat predictable, OSDM.

6. Warbringer - "Weapons Of Tomorrow" (2020) 3/5

Not bad modern thrash, but I gotta say no classic and on those occasions when they slow it down it pretty much sucks.

7. Faith No More - "Angel Dust" (1992) 2/5

American college-kid party music. Unlike the Shining and Neptunian Maximalism albums I was unable to relate to this in any way. I didn't even hate it, I just found it incomprehensible and could make no connection to the music either intellectually or emotionally. A musical placebo.

8. Strapping Young Lad - "Alien" (2005)

I haven't scored this because I honestly couldn't be arsed listening to it. I'm one of those unhip types who thinks Devin Townsend is massively overrated. A friend did encourage me to listen to it years ago and I remember not being enamoured of it. Sorry.

9. Gaza - "I Don't Care Where I Go When I Die" (2006) 0.5/5

So this is mathcore is it? Well, Fuck that! this is literally one of the most awful metal albums I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Sounds like a toddler throwing a tantrum in the supermarket because his mum won't buy him his favourite snack - if I wanted to hear that then I'd take a trip to the local Aldi. If I never hear this again it'll be too soon.

So, in summary, a couple of really amazing discoveries for me (thanks Daniel), an old favourite, a prog surprise, a couple of solid, if somewhat unremarkable releases, a couple of non-entities and an utter bag of shite (as we say round here)! The good outweigh the bad however, so thumbs up!!

Ah, that may be the issue. Thanks Daniel.

I think you can rate on one listen because, to be honest, ratings can often be quite fluid anyway. I do agree though that it is impossible to review an album in any meaningful way without several listens as to do so without delving into it further does the music (and the artist) a great disservice. This is often why I will submit a rating initially but not a review, the rating acting as a placeholder until I get round to giving the album the attention it deserves. If I can't be bothered to go back to it for whatever reason, then I am plenty happy enough for the rating to stand. For this reason I view unsubstantiated ratings as more of a rough idea of how an album is considered, whereas a review is far more relevant as to how a listener considers a release.

To return to my original point, maybe not everyone does have a subconscious bias, but I still think it is a very special critic who can put all internal biases to one side when passing judgement on something as subjective as music. Maybe I feel this because I have no musical ability whatsoever so the technical aspect of music is as impenetrable to me as quantum mechanics (which some dickheads say is why I listen to so much metal) and for this reason I have to judge a release on how it affects me personally and that will always inevitably butt up against personal bias.

I've been listening to Sodom's 2016 album Decision Day this morning. I thought "Actually this is a really solid album", but despite that, because it's Sodom and I know what the band are (were?) capable of, I couldn't in good conscience give it better than a 3.5. Now, had that album been put out by an unknown band, would I have scored it better? Maybe. Anyway I got to thinking and came to the conclusion that I subconsciously have a problem with great bands producing good, not great, product. So my question is, what are your conscious or unconscious biases when rating albums - and please don't tell me you don't have any, because if you think that's the case then, sorry, you do, you just don't recognise any of them!

I must second all Daniel's comments and add that I really appreciate all the effort and financial commitment that Ben puts into the site. Speaking as someone who doesn't really like internet forums, the one exception is here on The Academy and that is down to the openness and welcoming nature of the site as a whole which is absolutely driven by Ben (and Daniel) and their friendly and respecting attitude to all the members. We may not be large in number but we are all  dedicated and that is wholly down to those two guys I think. 

Also, it was mightily impressive how speedily and efficiently you implemented the new changes Ben and I think the site is just going from strength to strength. The most fun metal website on the internet - there, put that on the poster!

Hi Ben, I know I've still got a number of requests pending, but could you please add Spain's Saturno and their debut album Menhir (2020).

Hi Ben, please add Italy's Black / Doom outfit Nero or the Fall of Rome (also in The Fallen).

Also:

Old Corpse Road (UK)

Ayr (US)

The Infernal Sea (UK)

Disamara (Italy)

Czort (Poland)

Ben, I noticed that the drop down box of member's names is a list, not a searchable box. Whilst OK at the moment, would this not become difficult to navigate as the membership grew? If you had to search a list of hundreds, or even thousands of names it would become unusable wouldn't it? Other than that I really love the new listing features.

Ben could you please add:

Towards Atlantis Lights (Italy/UK)

Deathbell (France)

Angel of Damnation (Germany)

Leechfeast (Slovenia)

Faustcoven (Norway)

Barren Altar (US)

Alms (US)

Green Druid (US)

Ursa (US)

and the Mammoth Weed Wizard Bastard / Slomatics split album, Totems.

Unfortunately it isnt, it's just the corporate ravens feeding on the unseeing eyes of the corpse of a once mighty warrior ...Black Metal was his name!

Would it also be possible to sort by most recently made, so that you could view any newer lists first?

Yeah, I reckon so. So default to most likes, but allow for order of creation.

Yeah, sounds good, Ben.

Would it also be possible to sort by most recently made, so that you could view any newer lists first?

Hi Ben. I'm sorry for being thick, but I'm still not getting it. When you say you select, clan, genre and year do you mean via a function that has yet to be added or do we need to state all those things in the list title? I have begun another list but have not been asked to select any of those categories anywhere.

Sorry if I haven't been clear, but this is a design discussion. I haven't added the categories or filters yet. I just wanted to gather some feedback from the community before I go down that path. There could be a better way to configure things that I haven't thought of.

Right, Ben I'm with you now. That sounds great. As the number of lists increases there would definitely be a need to filter them I think. What about a way to "favourite" or "like" a particular list then within any given category allow them to be ordered by number of "likes" so presumably the more popular (and by inference, better or more useful) lists are shown first?

Works great Ben and I'm certain it will be very useful going forward. Although selecting to only show releases you've rated whilst at the same time excluding any releases you have already rated unsurprisingly yields zero returns!

Hi Ben. I'm sorry for being thick, but I'm still not getting it. When you say you select, clan, genre and year do you mean via a function that has yet to be added or do we need to state all those things in the list title? I have begun another list but have not been asked to select any of those categories anywhere.

Great playlist this month Daniel, one of the best yet. Sorry though Vinny, the Jute Gyte track went right over my head. Summoning are only really any good for table-top RPGing and I found the Ensiferum track a bit fromage-friendly! I was also wondering why the Deafheaven track was so crap until... Bam!! When it gets going it is amazing. Everything else was terrific and to be honest how can any playlist that features Immortal, Bathory and Darkthrone not be awesome? A few I need to check out further too, such as Wiegedood and Anorexia Nervosa (I remember not being impressed by them before, but their track on here is very good indeed).

Ha, Jute Gyte is a challenge alright.

Yeah, he sure is. I really enjoyed his Perdurance album, but I'm a bit too much of a literal person for the more avant-garde stuff. Still, he's obviously ridiculously talented, so good luck to him.

Great playlist this month Daniel, one of the best yet. Sorry though Vinny, the Jute Gyte track went right over my head. Summoning are only really any good for table-top RPGing and I found the Ensiferum track a bit fromage-friendly! I was also wondering why the Deafheaven track was so crap until... Bam!! When it gets going it is amazing. Everything else was terrific and to be honest how can any playlist that features Immortal, Bathory and Darkthrone not be awesome? A few I need to check out further too, such as Wiegedood and Anorexia Nervosa (I remember not being impressed by them before, but their track on here is very good indeed).

Hi Ben, I am a little unsure what you mean. Do you intend to have different sections within the list section to differentiate years, genres etc or do you mean to have a list section within each separate clan? The latter may help tidy things up for clan-specific lists leaving the main lists section for more generalised listings, such as "Greatest Albums of the 1990's" or other less genre-specific lists.

This is a tricky subject and conversation to have on a music website forum, to be honest. I agree with Daniel on a purely musical basis that for the vast majority of DSBM the differentiation is purely thematic and I also agree that a lot of it is self-pitying. However, I disagree that it doesn't fit in with the black metal aesthetic. BM has long been about negativity, misanthropy and hatred so surely the ultimate expression of that aesthetic is self-hatred and self-destruction. It's easy to hate something else, much more difficult to hate yourself.

A lot of DSBM however sounds disingenious and is made by people who have probably just latched on to the themes with no real understanding of depression and mental illness, like a majority of black metal bands who sing about Satanism aren't actually Satanists. For me, this is why albums like V-Halmstad and Death Pierce Me are so affecting, because they get under the skin of those issues and through their music a listener who suffers from those same issues can connect more deeply. Sure to those never affected by those same issues they may sound lame or inexplicable and if that's the case then I'm made up for you, but those records can also mean a lot on a personal level to others for their ability to show a certain type of listener that they are not alone in their thoughts and feelings. Also no one would ever kill themselves because of a record, despite what Tipper Gore and Mary Whitehouse would have had people believe in the 80s. I know many will probably scoff at these comments, but frankly I don't give a shit!

New York thrash metal at its finest.

...yes it is!

Ben, could you please add Aphonic Threnody.

Hi Ben could you please add Portugal's Onirik.

Interesting that you mention Silencer there at the end, Daniel. Now, just for the record, I am not a massive fan of DSBM particularly, but V-Halmstad and Silencer's Death Pierce Me are two of the most interesting and emotionally resonant black metal releases I have ever heard. Although it is true that Silencer divide opinion, especially with respect to the vocals, personally I love that album. Considering BM can be so hokey at times with it's satanic and evil  imagery (and don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it) these are two albums that actually seem to mean something deeper and I find I connect with on another level. Again, great choice.

Have been giving the new lists option a go and, well Ben, you've really gone and done it now!!

Awesome...

Excellent work Ben. Really stoked that the charts have been expanded, now they are no longer just the tip of the iceberg!

Great to see the charts expanded. I don't know if it's just me, but there seems to be a problem. When I went onto page two of The Pit chart, it shows the second page of the chart for the combined clans, not just for The Pit releases. Oh, and for The North.

According to RYM the sub-genres of doom metal are death doom, funeral doom and so-called traditional doom. So if it's not death or funeral doom it's traditional. In other words it is JUST FUCKIN' DOOM!!!! 

New single from Green Druid's upcoming album, At the Maw of Ruin due out 4th December.

Suggestions for December:

Slaughter - Incinerator - Surrender or Die EP (1985). Unfortunately the version from Strappado isn't available on Spotify.

Sacrilege B.C. - Fun With Napalm - Party With God (1986)

Razor - Deathrace - Executioner's Song (1985)

Playlist suggestions for December:

Gorgoroth - Om kristen og jödisk tru - Destroyer: Or About How to Philosophize With the Hammer (1998)

Varathron -  Under the Sight of Horus - Walpurgisnacht (1995)

Mayhem -  Fall of Seraphs - Wolf's Lair Abyss EP (1997)

So, Daniel, when you say the quota for death doom is full, do you mean gothic death doom or old-school death doom? Another annoying sub-genre is traditional doom metal, a genre that has become so misused on RYM I now ignore it and actively vote against it whenever possible.

Anyway, playlist suggestions for next month:

Monolord - Died A Million Times - Vaenir (2015) - Doom Metal

The Lumberjack Feedback - New Order (of the Ages) Part II  - Mere Mortals  (2019) - Atmospheric Sludge Metal

Robots of the Ancient World - High & Drive - Cosmic Riders (2019) - Stoner Metal

I am completely with you there Ben. If you are well-fitted to any particular clan as a fan, then I think you will have a feel for whether an album is a "fit" for that clan or not rather than getting bogged down in genre and descriptor minutiae, particularly as we seem to be leaning heavily on RYM which is notorious for mis-labelling metal genres.

Just as an aside, I don't have any kind of downer of CoF, I quite like a couple of their earlier albums, but I just can't picture them as a Fallen band I'm afraid.

While I take your point, I'm sorry Daniel but I must disagree on one thing and that is that death doom is inherently gothic. Sure, a certain style of death doom is such, the My Dying Bride / Paradise Lost branch, but what about bands like Winter, Autopsy, Cianide, Ceremonium, Asphyx, Atavisma, Void Rot and the likes who have no gothic leanings whatsoever, but a much stronger death metal influence and a filthy, cavernous sound? In fact I sometimes wonder how some of these gothic death doom albums get tagged as death doom at all, having virtually no death metal DNA in them. Maybe these are actually gothic metal releases rather than death doom. Like I say, I am no expert as I find the whole gothic metal style tedious, so I am not advocating one way or another, but I do know what I hear and what I don't!

I am not actually advocating moving Gothic Metal out of The Fallen, as such. The problem with the genre, it seems to me, is that rather than being an out and out genre in and of itself, it seems more like a qualifier to other genres, in much the same way that "melodic metal" is and that doesn't have it's own genre does it? So, as such, we have gothic death doom, gothic black metal and so on in the same way we have melodic black metal, melo-death etc. I wouldn't even have a clue what a purely gothic metal release would sound like, or what would differentiate it from other metal genres other than aesthetically. Maybe those better qualified (I think I've made my disinterest in the genre apparent) could explain to me what makes a singular gothic metal release, rather than as a descriptor of the atmosphere of another genre? I know RYM and others treat it as a unique genre, but from my limited experience I think they are wrong and it should be used as a sub-genre of other, more definitive genres. If this was the case, releases would then reside under the clan of the relevant major genre.

This is all hypothetical if course, I don't expect or even want anything to change, but I think it's a point worth making.

I notice you haven't rated this one Sonny. It's a fucking strong release that more than holds its own with the big boys at the more extreme end of thrash.

Thanks once more Daniel for a quality rec. I think I've found my new favourite Sepultura album and I feel you have repaid me for causing me to listen to that fucking terrible Tainted Love cover!!

The only real anomaly that sticks out for me is The Sphere. Would Industrial Metal have been better served being incorporated into one of the other clans such as The Gateway or The Revolution? With a much lower membership count and being the only clan that encompasses just one genre it seems a bit underfed.

The other issue for me is that Gothic Metal being in The Fallen (and I CAN see why) means that bands like Cradle of Filth are included, when they don't really fit.

Other than that it's all good and an original way of creating talking points about the music we each love.

Thanks for the suggestions, I really should get to work on this soon!!!

Ben, please add Russian crusty death metallers Tarpan and their 2018 album Бездна (The Abyss).

To be honest, Daniel, my experience with Sepultura begins with Beneath the Remains and ends with Chaos A.D., both of which are firm favourites. I've never really considered their earlier releases, but I will check it out sometime this week.

Weirdly, despite being a massive fan of both thrash and punk, I've never really listened to that much crossover thrash. I guess if I want thrash I listen to thrash and if I want punk then I listen to punk. I do like Agnostic Front's punk material though, so maybe I'll give their album a listen. The problem I've had with crossover is that it always sounds less aggressive than my punk yardstick band, the mighty Discharge, so what's the point? By the way, Suicidal Tendencies hardcore debut destroys their thrashier albums in my opinion. Still I'm gonna spin some of your top 8 and see where we go!

OK, here we go...

1. Slayer - Reign in Blood (1986)

2. Metallica - Master of Puppets (1986)

3. Celtic Frost - To Mega Therion (1985)

4. Kreator - Coma of Souls (1990)

5. Sabbat - History of a Time to Come (1988)

6. Razor - Violent Restitution (1988)

7. Dark Angel - Darkness Descends (1986) 

8. Sacrilege - Behind the Realms of Madness (1985)

9. Kreator - Pleasure to Kill (1986)

10. Morbid Saint - Spectrum of Death (1990)

I guess my list only spans six years, but when you are talking about thrash is there really going to be much top ten material after 1991? This is a genre that definitely had a short(ish) classic era. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't any decent thrash after'91, hell, I even dig some modern thrash albums, but all the above are 10/10's for me, in fact I had to leave some out: The Ultraviolence, Persecution Mania and Seven Churches to name but three. By the way, is there any genuine thrash-head who doesn't rate Reign in Blood as number one?

Sonny, this is an absolute no-brainer for you.

Fantastic.. it inhabits that dark, foetid zone between thrash and death metal that I love. Energetic and invigorating. Thanks for the rec.

I intend to write a review for this shortly, so I'll just post a quick reaction here for now. I've avoided Shining for years due to an adverse reaction to one of their earlier albums. However, I must send you my profuse thanks, Daniel,  for selecting this as this month's featured release because this has absolutely floored me and I would never have listened to it otherwise. It has got to be one of the most profoundly affecting releases I have heard in a good while and one I really found myself relating to, so great job with this month's selection.

Oh man, that is one horrible album cover... but it is a pretty amusing title all the same!

I agree with Daniel that Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is a better album than  Vol.4, except that I would probably go further and rate it as one of my all-time favourite heavy metal albums. Sabbath stretched out and expanded their sound into more progressive territory, even adding Rick Wakeman of Yes on keyboards to hammer the point home. Yet this is still fundamentally a heavy metal record and it is quite mind-boggling to realise that Sabbath were already taking the genre into a further dimension BEFORE ANYONE ELSE WAS EVEN PLAYING IT! It's almost as if everyone else was playing catch up even before they had started. Great songs abound: the title track, Sabbra Cadabra, Killing Yourself to Live, Spiral Architect and the amazing A National Acrobat (although after more than forty years I still don't know what that means - if you can enlighten me please do).

I honestly believe this is a hugely underrated album along with Sabotage, as Sabbath hit the sweet spot between the point where they had mastered their trade, particularly their songwriting and their coke-fuelled over-ambitious and sloppy phase that ultimately led to the mark one lineup's demise. Very few bands can match the Sab's run of albums from the debut to Sabotage and they made them all without following anyone else's template. I can't say for certain that Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is my favourite Sabbath album, but equally I can't say it's not!