Sonny's Forum Replies

Suggestions for December:

Slaughter - Incinerator - Surrender or Die EP (1985). Unfortunately the version from Strappado isn't available on Spotify.

Sacrilege B.C. - Fun With Napalm - Party With God (1986)

Razor - Deathrace - Executioner's Song (1985)

Playlist suggestions for December:

Gorgoroth - Om kristen og jödisk tru - Destroyer: Or About How to Philosophize With the Hammer (1998)

Varathron -  Under the Sight of Horus - Walpurgisnacht (1995)

Mayhem -  Fall of Seraphs - Wolf's Lair Abyss EP (1997)

So, Daniel, when you say the quota for death doom is full, do you mean gothic death doom or old-school death doom? Another annoying sub-genre is traditional doom metal, a genre that has become so misused on RYM I now ignore it and actively vote against it whenever possible.

Anyway, playlist suggestions for next month:

Monolord - Died A Million Times - Vaenir (2015) - Doom Metal

The Lumberjack Feedback - New Order (of the Ages) Part II  - Mere Mortals  (2019) - Atmospheric Sludge Metal

Robots of the Ancient World - High & Drive - Cosmic Riders (2019) - Stoner Metal

I am completely with you there Ben. If you are well-fitted to any particular clan as a fan, then I think you will have a feel for whether an album is a "fit" for that clan or not rather than getting bogged down in genre and descriptor minutiae, particularly as we seem to be leaning heavily on RYM which is notorious for mis-labelling metal genres.

Just as an aside, I don't have any kind of downer of CoF, I quite like a couple of their earlier albums, but I just can't picture them as a Fallen band I'm afraid.

While I take your point, I'm sorry Daniel but I must disagree on one thing and that is that death doom is inherently gothic. Sure, a certain style of death doom is such, the My Dying Bride / Paradise Lost branch, but what about bands like Winter, Autopsy, Cianide, Ceremonium, Asphyx, Atavisma, Void Rot and the likes who have no gothic leanings whatsoever, but a much stronger death metal influence and a filthy, cavernous sound? In fact I sometimes wonder how some of these gothic death doom albums get tagged as death doom at all, having virtually no death metal DNA in them. Maybe these are actually gothic metal releases rather than death doom. Like I say, I am no expert as I find the whole gothic metal style tedious, so I am not advocating one way or another, but I do know what I hear and what I don't!

I am not actually advocating moving Gothic Metal out of The Fallen, as such. The problem with the genre, it seems to me, is that rather than being an out and out genre in and of itself, it seems more like a qualifier to other genres, in much the same way that "melodic metal" is and that doesn't have it's own genre does it? So, as such, we have gothic death doom, gothic black metal and so on in the same way we have melodic black metal, melo-death etc. I wouldn't even have a clue what a purely gothic metal release would sound like, or what would differentiate it from other metal genres other than aesthetically. Maybe those better qualified (I think I've made my disinterest in the genre apparent) could explain to me what makes a singular gothic metal release, rather than as a descriptor of the atmosphere of another genre? I know RYM and others treat it as a unique genre, but from my limited experience I think they are wrong and it should be used as a sub-genre of other, more definitive genres. If this was the case, releases would then reside under the clan of the relevant major genre.

This is all hypothetical if course, I don't expect or even want anything to change, but I think it's a point worth making.

I notice you haven't rated this one Sonny. It's a fucking strong release that more than holds its own with the big boys at the more extreme end of thrash.

Thanks once more Daniel for a quality rec. I think I've found my new favourite Sepultura album and I feel you have repaid me for causing me to listen to that fucking terrible Tainted Love cover!!

The only real anomaly that sticks out for me is The Sphere. Would Industrial Metal have been better served being incorporated into one of the other clans such as The Gateway or The Revolution? With a much lower membership count and being the only clan that encompasses just one genre it seems a bit underfed.

The other issue for me is that Gothic Metal being in The Fallen (and I CAN see why) means that bands like Cradle of Filth are included, when they don't really fit.

Other than that it's all good and an original way of creating talking points about the music we each love.

Thanks for the suggestions, I really should get to work on this soon!!!

Ben, please add Russian crusty death metallers Tarpan and their 2018 album Бездна (The Abyss).

To be honest, Daniel, my experience with Sepultura begins with Beneath the Remains and ends with Chaos A.D., both of which are firm favourites. I've never really considered their earlier releases, but I will check it out sometime this week.

Weirdly, despite being a massive fan of both thrash and punk, I've never really listened to that much crossover thrash. I guess if I want thrash I listen to thrash and if I want punk then I listen to punk. I do like Agnostic Front's punk material though, so maybe I'll give their album a listen. The problem I've had with crossover is that it always sounds less aggressive than my punk yardstick band, the mighty Discharge, so what's the point? By the way, Suicidal Tendencies hardcore debut destroys their thrashier albums in my opinion. Still I'm gonna spin some of your top 8 and see where we go!

OK, here we go...

1. Slayer - Reign in Blood (1986)

2. Metallica - Master of Puppets (1986)

3. Celtic Frost - To Mega Therion (1985)

4. Kreator - Coma of Souls (1990)

5. Sabbat - History of a Time to Come (1988)

6. Razor - Violent Restitution (1988)

7. Dark Angel - Darkness Descends (1986) 

8. Sacrilege - Behind the Realms of Madness (1985)

9. Kreator - Pleasure to Kill (1986)

10. Morbid Saint - Spectrum of Death (1990)

I guess my list only spans six years, but when you are talking about thrash is there really going to be much top ten material after 1991? This is a genre that definitely had a short(ish) classic era. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't any decent thrash after'91, hell, I even dig some modern thrash albums, but all the above are 10/10's for me, in fact I had to leave some out: The Ultraviolence, Persecution Mania and Seven Churches to name but three. By the way, is there any genuine thrash-head who doesn't rate Reign in Blood as number one?

Sonny, this is an absolute no-brainer for you.

Fantastic.. it inhabits that dark, foetid zone between thrash and death metal that I love. Energetic and invigorating. Thanks for the rec.

I intend to write a review for this shortly, so I'll just post a quick reaction here for now. I've avoided Shining for years due to an adverse reaction to one of their earlier albums. However, I must send you my profuse thanks, Daniel,  for selecting this as this month's featured release because this has absolutely floored me and I would never have listened to it otherwise. It has got to be one of the most profoundly affecting releases I have heard in a good while and one I really found myself relating to, so great job with this month's selection.

Oh man, that is one horrible album cover... but it is a pretty amusing title all the same!

I agree with Daniel that Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is a better album than  Vol.4, except that I would probably go further and rate it as one of my all-time favourite heavy metal albums. Sabbath stretched out and expanded their sound into more progressive territory, even adding Rick Wakeman of Yes on keyboards to hammer the point home. Yet this is still fundamentally a heavy metal record and it is quite mind-boggling to realise that Sabbath were already taking the genre into a further dimension BEFORE ANYONE ELSE WAS EVEN PLAYING IT! It's almost as if everyone else was playing catch up even before they had started. Great songs abound: the title track, Sabbra Cadabra, Killing Yourself to Live, Spiral Architect and the amazing A National Acrobat (although after more than forty years I still don't know what that means - if you can enlighten me please do).

I honestly believe this is a hugely underrated album along with Sabotage, as Sabbath hit the sweet spot between the point where they had mastered their trade, particularly their songwriting and their coke-fuelled over-ambitious and sloppy phase that ultimately led to the mark one lineup's demise. Very few bands can match the Sab's run of albums from the debut to Sabotage and they made them all without following anyone else's template. I can't say for certain that Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is my favourite Sabbath album, but equally I can't say it's not!

Will get on it tomorrow...

Track by track commentary:

01.    Melvins – “Hag Me” (from “Houdini”, 1993)
I am seemingly one of the few who thinks that sometimes Melvins are extremely overrated. When they are good they are very good, however and this track is a pretty damn fine slab of sludgy, stoner-influenced doom metal. 8/10

02.    Funeral – “This Barren Skin” (from “From These Wounds”, 2006)
Gothic-led death doom that I’m sure appeals to the vast hordes of My Dying Bride fans, but I find most of this stuff outside a few of the more classy acts, insipid and bland, this included. 4.5/10

03.    Theatre Of Tragedy – “Venus” (from “Aegis”, 1998)
See above, add cheesy synths and Disney’s Beauty and the Beast-style vocals, then divide by ten - awful. The metal version of Jim Steinman. Luckily, Spotify played an ad after this and that was preferable! 1/10

04.    Katatonia – “Saw You Drown” (from “Discouraged Ones”, 1998)
..and so to the “mighty” Katatonia. I appreciate they are one of the darlings of the doom scene and indeed they do have their moments, but I really don’t rate them as all that. This would be a good track if the singer didn’t sound so fucking uninterested. 6/10

05.    Tiamat – “Cain” (from “Prey”, 2003)
Is this an outtake from Sisters of Mercy’s Vision Thing album? I’m sorry, but you’re losing me here, in fact I’m beginning to question if I’m actually listening to a metal playlist at all because most of this, up to this point, sounds like bands who would rather be playing anything but metal. 5/10

06.    Cult Of Luna – “Ghost Trail” (from “Eternal Kingdom”, 2008)
I like Cult of Luna very much and this is a nice builder of a track from an album I am unfamiliar with. 8/10

07.    Down – “Ghosts Along The Mississippi” (from “Down II: A Bustle In Your Hedgerow…”, 2002)
Loo-sianna-swamp-mud-thick grooves of southern fried stoner metal from the guy who used to be in that Pantera. 8/10

08.    Elder – “Release” (from “Spires Burn/Release” E.P., 2012)
A lengthy stoner jam from one of the great exponents of the form. 8/10

09.    Reverend Bizarre – “The Devil Rides Out” (from “II: Crush The Insects”, 2005) [Submitted by Sonny92]
I guess I’m biased as this is one of mine and I love Rev Biz anyway, but this is classic heavy metal-based trad doom with goofy Hammer-style horror lyrics. 9/10

10.    Saint Vitus – “Born Too Late” (from “Born Too Late”, 1986) [Submitted by Daniel]
Shit, I fuckin’ love that Wino guitar tone. A molasses-thick, crawling riff and Wino’s whiskey-soaked vocals that hints at smoky back rooms in seedy back alley bars. Outsider lyrics that hark back to a time when metal was still an outlaw brand of music instead of the corporate whore it sometimes appears to be nowadays.10/10

11.    Gore – “Extirpation” (from “Hart Gore”, 1986)
A band I must confess to being completely ignorant of prior to this, but this I like. 8/10

12.    Winter – “Servants Of The Warsmen” (from “Into Darkness”, 1990) [Submitted by Sonny92]
Now this is what I really call death doom, classic old-school shit that has more than a passing relationship with death metal. A true classic of death doom and an album every metalhead should own. 10/10

13.    My Dying Bride – “Catherine Blake” (from “Songs Of Darkness, Words Of Light”, 2004)
Classic-sounding MDB from one of their most popular albums, with a nod to gothic horror tales. 8/10

14.    Couch Slut – “I’m 14” (from “Take A Chance On Rock ‘n’ Roll”, 2020)
Genuine hardcore-derived sludge that shows it’s punk origins as much as it’s metal roots. 7/10

15.    Void Of Silence – “Opus II: With No Half-Measure” (from “Criteria ov 666” (2002) [Submitted by Ben]
More gothic metal-influenced doom, but at least this sounds a bit less polished being based on black metal rather than death metal and as such feels rawer and more vital than that tired old path. 7/10

16.    Boris – “Blackout” (Pink”, 2005) [Submitted by Daniel]
As a more recent convert to Boris I am probably still in a honeymoon phase with the band, but that said this is still a fantastic short droney crawl showcasing their own particular brand of noise metal.

17.    Esoteric – “Rotting In Dereliction” (from “A Pyrrhic Existence”, 2019) [Submitted by Sonny92]
The masters of funeral doom hit it out of the park with last year’s A Pyrrhic Existence and this is that album’s second best track. Bleak, hopeless, savage and anguished, it combines funeral and death doom in a crushing heavyweight of a track that strips away any pretentions and leaves a raw and exposed soul. 9/10

18.    Cult Leader – “Sympathetic” (from “Lightless Walk”, 2015)
Another band I’m unfamiliar with, but I like their angry-sounding, hardcore-derived sludge if this is typical of them. 7/10

Came close to binning this playlist by track five, to be honest. Fortunately it improved steeply after that point and I found a couple of new gems to explore.

Just got round to listening to Hexer's new album. Their combination of sludge and Autopsy/Winter-like death doom sets them apart from the slew of cookie cutter doom clones doing the rounds:

Hi Ben, could you add Ahab's Live Prey, Pallbearer's Forgotten Days and Hexer's Realm of the Feathered Serpent please.

Hi Ben please add Icelandic atmo-black project Auðn and Belarussian pagan black metallers Raven Throne's latest album Viartannie.

Sorry I've only just seen this thread.

Personally, as I have long since lost touch with any of my metal-loving friends and I love to talk metal, I enjoy the interaction of the forums immensely. However, it is sometimes difficult to sustain a prolonged discussion, probably due to the small number of active participants. The advantage of the forums here as opposed to those on RYM (where I don't really participate any more) is that MA forum users respect other's opinions whilst not necessarily agreeing with them and, consequently, don't have some smart arse jumping in with a smarmy comment deriding the music and it's fans every time anybody mentions the word "metal", like some deranged Pavlov's dog. Obviously I also love to rate and review music too and like to see what others think via their ratings and reviews. Incidentally, I don't know if it's just me but I seem unable to "like" reviews anymore as nothing happens when I press the button. Also love the playlists which is certainly a unique selling point, as is the Gallery.

I'm afraid I'm with MacabreEternal on the Hall of Judgement in that I have very little interest in it as I dislike the whole genre/micro-genre labelling fad that seems to have invaded metal.

My main gripe with the site is that it doesn't do much to promote new metal releases and sometimes feels like it exists in a bubble. I have no qualms at all with focussing on metal's glorious past, but a nod to the current and future would surely be welcome. How about an Album of the Month feature, maybe nominated by members and chosen from those nominations in similar vein to the playlists.

The lists feature seems to me to be something of a missed opportunity and is something I would like to see expanded, allowing other users to contribute because at the moment they are only a spectator sport for most of us, allowing us no participation and as a consequence a feature it is difficult to engage with. As you can probably tell from some of my forum threads I love a good list, but the forums are the only place we can post them.

Reading this back it sounds a little harsh in places and I have no wish to appear negative as I really do enjoy the site and thoroughly appreciate all the hard work both Ben and Daniel put in to provide something worthwhile and I'm sure their dedication will ultimately pay off.

I remember I gave it a couple of spins ages ago but don't recall it gripping me that much. I'll have to give it another go, maybe it'll resonate a bit more with me now.

As for the Sepultura version, is there even any point in commenting on these pointless covers any more? If Sepultura want to chase after Marilyn Manson fans than good luck to 'em, but count me out.

Ben, could you please add Kreator's 2020 live album London Apocalypticon - Live at the Roundhouse.

...which itself was a cover of the original 1965 B-side of Gloria Jones' My Bad Boy's Comin' Home which was a northern soul classic in it's own right back in the day.

Here's my suggestions for Noirvember:

1. Cultus Profano - Towards the Temple of Darkened Fates, Op. 19 from Accursed Possession (2020)

2. Panopticon - Killing the Giants As They Sleep  from Kentucky (2012)

3. Darkthrone -  In the Shadow of the Horns from A Blaze in the Northern Sky (1992)

Onslaught -  Angels of Death  from Power From Hell (1985)

Razor - Hypertension from Violent Restitution (1988)

Megadeth -  Liar from So Far, So Good... So What! (1988)

Sorry Daniel but I'm not massively into tech thrash or speed metal, I've not listened to enough crossover thrash to be any kind of authority and I'm not even sure I know what groove metal is other than Pantera are supposed to be one of the best and I can't do with them, so it's classic thrash all the way for me! Feel free to ignore any or all suggestions if quotas are full.

We've had nothing from Reverend Bizarre yet, so how about The Devil Rides Out from II: Crush the Insects?

Hi Ben, could you add German drone/doom duo Father Sky Mother Earth please?

Ben, please add Enslaved's new album, Utgard. North / Infinite clans.

Thoughts (Part Two):

12. Acid Bath – “Dr. Seuss Is Dead”

Another sludge band I can usually take or leave. I'll take this one - I especially like the thrashy tempo change. 7/10

13. 16 – “Candy In Spanish”

Angry-sounding sludge as a father hopes for a better life for his young daughter than the one he's had to endure himself. So actually quite a positive message, albeit tinged with regret and some bitterness, despite the aggressive tone of the track. 8/10

14. Tristania – “Beyond The Veil”

Sorry, but I truly cannot stand this symphonic shit, just sounds like Disney-metal to me. 2/10

15. The Ruins Of Beverast – “Surtur Barbaar Maritime”

Oh man, did I need this after that Tristania track! Proper doom metal that doesn't make me think of anthropomorphised, animated rodents! Blackened doom with an almost ritualistic slant. Superb stuff. 10/10

16. Colosseum – “Towards The Infinite”

I know I'm biased and this was one of my choices, but this shit is what I live for. What a sublime downer of an ending to the playlist. 10/10

All in all an enjoyable playlist - a couple of bands I will be exploring further, a couple of surprises, only one dud and some stone-cold classy tunes.

Thoughts (Part One):

01. Neurosis – “No River To Take Me Home”

I've mainly avoided Neurosis a lot after listening to Times of Grace many moons ago and being unimpressed. This, however, is fantastic and I must revisit the band if this is indicative of the quality they usually put out. 9/10

02. Pagan Altar – “Judgement Of The Dead”

Blatant Sabbath worship - and nothing wrong with that. 7/10

03. Black Flag – “Nothing Left Inside”

Better known as a hardcore band, they actually played many shows with The Obsessed opening for them and you can definitely hear Wino's influence on the guitar sound here. The genesis of the bastard child of doom and hardcore punk known as sludge metal. 8/10 (influence-wise 10/10).

04. Acid King – “2 Wheel Nation”

Lori S, frontwoman of Acid King is a seriously no-bullshit person and this is a great, catchy slice of stoner metal hailing the biker lifestyle she embraces. 8/10

05. Elder – “Dead Roots Stirring”

With each consecutive release Elder move further away from their metal roots and further into heavy psych / progressive rock territory, but on this 12 minute centrepiece of their second album, Dead Roots Stirring, despite touching on both of those genres, this still retains enough stoner metal content to justify it's inclusion on a MA playlist. 8/10

06. Stillborn – “I, The Stillborn”

Gothic metal that's kind of OK, but still not really what floats my boat I'm afraid 6/10

07. Type O Negative – “Creepy Green Light”

Holy shit! A T-O-N track that doesn't set my teeth on edge! The best I've heard from them yet (by a f***ing long way). 8/10

08. The Angelic Process – “Dying in A Minor”

Again, not a band I'm familiar with. This begins as seriously low-energy stuff, bordering on catatonic at times, before erupting into a majestic roar. I've got a feeling that this may be a band I will become quite fond of. 8/10

09. M.S.W. – “Humanity” (from “Obliviosus”, 2020)

Another of my own submissions and an emotional, vulnerable and at the same time crushingly heavy and angry track dealing with the horrors of drug addiction from my album of the year to date.  10/10

10. Solitude Aeturnus – “Scent Of Death”

Suitably bombastic epic doom from the Texan doomster's last album. I haven't actually heard this album before, but this track is great, so I will be checking it out. 8/10

11. Thou – “Grissecon”

For me, Thou can be a bit hit and miss, but this I like. Bayou-sludge thick guitars, plodding tempos and desperate-sounding vocals all add up to a slab of southern sludge that feels like drowning in a swamp. 8/10

I'll come back to the remainder of the playlist later...

Definitely a classic example.

Absolutely - I can't believe I forgot that one!

Can definitely hear what you mean about the Rush sound - that bass is just so Geddy Lee! As a massive (early) Rush fan, I gotta say I like it. I've not listened to Carnivore prior to this, so I'll check out their albums as part of my current endeavour to fill in any holes in my 80s/90s thrash experience!

Darkthrone - Panzerfaust  (1995)

Despite the strong Celtic Frost vibe to this I still find it a howling piece of BM that never ceases to entertain.  At least they were honest about wanting to focus on CF on this and the job they do is respectful and not just a gratuitous regurgitation of that band.  One of my favoured Darkthrone releases.

5/5

Hear, hear! Darkthrone are probably my favourite BM outfit and Panzerfaust my second favourite album of their's after A Blaze in the Northern Sky. It's massively underrated.

As I've referenced elsewhere, I am not a big fan of Overkill and the debut is unlikely to change the view of anyone of like mind. I think it's a poorly produced and uncommitted record, as if the band are caught between Iron Maiden / Mercyful Fate style classic metal and thrash metal and were hedging their bets. Some parts of this sound like demos for Maiden's Powerslave  album, yet they prove that when they put their mind to it they can thrash for sure - listen to Hammerhead for proof! To address Saxy's point, I can only express what I see from a euro-centric point of view, so I don't have any insight to how the band were perceived in the US. In those pre-internet days word of mouth was key to a band's exposure and standing and in Europe at least I would say that Overkill were a little late to the party, perhaps not getting the label support they needed. Let's face it, to really put this album in context it was released in the same year as Hell Awaits, To Mega Therion, Spreading the Disease, Endless Pain, Seven Churches and Bonded by Blood against all of which I think most thrash fans would agree it pales by comparison. I even think minor albums like Onslaught's Power From Hell, Sacrilege's Behind the Realms of Madness and Razor's Evil Invaders piss all over it, to be honest. At a time when music wasn't cheap - certainly not in England anyway - fans had to be more discerning in what they bought and I just don't think Overkill cut it, especially with this album and as Saxy says, you only get one chance to make a first impression.

Just discovered this drone/funeral doom outfit and their 2018 album, of which this track is the major proportion.

Funeral doom perfection:

Sorry, Ben could you please add short-lived Norwegian death doom outfit Black Lodge.

I'd be happy to. I bought their album when it came out and have a soft spot for it.

Yeah, it's kind of a unique album that whilst primarily being death doom is something so much more too. I think it's a record that really deserves much more widespread acclaim.

One of the great stoner metal albums is 25 years old today - Cathedral's Carnival Bizarre, along with it's brilliant single Hopkins (The Witchfinder General):

Sorry, Ben could you please add short-lived Norwegian death doom outfit Black Lodge.

I've not listened to these guys before and I'm a little disappointed to be honest. Seems like they are trying to sound like New Dark Age era Solstice, but don't have the songs.

Ordinary.

Really solid traditional doom metal from one of the great under-rated female-fronted doom bands.

This is the album that fulfills all the hysterical paranoia of late twentieth century parent's fears of drugs influencing their offspring's minds and causing them to turn to more drugs, sex, satanism, even more drugs and insanity - Reefer Madness brought to life. I'm sure it gives Jus Osborne a warm feeling inside to think what a record like this must do to the sensibilities of the so-called moral arbiters of the world as he feeds on their hypocritical outrage like some kind of mental vampire.
Musically it takes the original template for stoner doom laid down by Sleep, slows it down, makes it exponentially heavier and lyrically more outrageous to produce the standard against which other stoner doom albums are measured. Funeralopolis, Weird Tales, Dopethrone and I, The Witchfinder are the very epitome of what stoner metal is all about. It's been a long, long time since I last got stoned, but all I have to do is put on a pair of headphones, turn out the lights and crank this up to take me back there again.

Just taken delivery of my vinyl copy of this superb album. The opening track is breathtaking:

Too late for October I know, but for future reference I would like to suggest Solitary White Ship from The Drowning's 2008 album This Bleak Descent along with The Bastard Wind from the amazing collaboration album between Bell Witch and Aerial Ruin, The Stygian Bough Volume I.

Ben, could you also add The Crooked Whispers (US) please?

Ben, could you please add the following when you get chance:

Abske Fides (Brazil)

Amaranthine Trampler (UK)

Arcana Coelestia (Italy)

Ennui (Tbilisi, Georgia)

Funeral Moth (Japan)

Funeris (Argentina)

The Funeral Orchestra (Sweden)

Illimitable Dolor (Australia)

Murkrat (Australia)

Noctu (Italy)

Ben, please add French gothic doom duo Lethian Dreams, Finnish funeral doom band Towards and US traditional doom band Cruthu.