Sonny's Forum Replies

Ben, could you add LA's Merciless Death please.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ben's assertion that the issue lies with laziness around genre descriptions (particularly on RYM) and the fact that any metal with folk elements becomes tagged automatically as folk metal or any Viking-themed metal is therefore Viking Metal. The question then is, do you rely on genre tagging from RYM and try to fix it through the Hall, in which case maybe MA needs it's own, less ambiguous genre descriptions, or do you find another source for the initial genre designations?

The Manowar / Bathory connection is also very similar to the Black Sabbath / nearly every single stoner doom band ever who claim the Sabbs as an influence connection where Sabbath are heavy metal and all those others are stoner or doom metal, even those who sound exactly like Sabbath.

The wild and weird world of genre definitions, frustrating though it is, is certainly a great source of debate in the Metalverse though isn't it?

Folk Metal is another of the myriad sub-genres I am not particularly clear about. There are a huge number of black metal releases with substantial folk parts that often get tagged as folk metal on RYM (particularly as secondaries), but I guess what you're referring to is the out and out folk metal that, to my ears sounds like it would be more at home nestling next to power metal in The Guardians. Viking Metal I'm not so sure about as most of my experience with that comes from Bathory and early Enslaved, which I have no problem with sitting in The North.

I have no idea about trance metal's proper placing as, being an old, out of touch m-f, I'm not even sure what it is. Maybe you could suggest a couple of the top examples for me to check out. As for Nintendocore & trancecore I didn't even know they existed until I read your post. Please, what the fuck is Nintendocore and whatever you do, keep it the fuck away from me!! Whatever next, McDonaldscore, Nikecore? So metal has now officially become a corporate whore (I kinda knew it anyway, but that is ridiculous).

Finally, grindcore sits perfectly naturally in The Horde as far as I can tell.

January suggestions:

HeXen: Gas Chamber from State of Insurgency (2008)

Blood Tsunami: One Step Closer to the Grave from Grand Feast for Vultures (2009)

Slayer: Chemical Warfare from Haunting the Chapel EP (1984) (Spotify: Live Undead / Haunting the Chapel)

Suggestions for January:

Thorr's Hammer: Troll from Dommedagsnatt  (1996)

Saint Vitus: Bitter Truth from Mournful Cries (1988)

Burning Witch: Sacred Predictions from Crippled Lucifer (1998)

For January I'm only going to go with a single suggestion as it's quite a long one (and not just the title):

Ek sá halr at Hóars veðri hǫsvan serk Hrísgrísnis bar from Árstíðir Lifsins' latest album, Saga á tveim tungum II: Eigi fjǫll né firðir.

However, if you need to fill a couple of minutes I wouldn't mind hearing Marduk's Panzer Division Marduk from the album of the same name.

I agree with you Daniel that the vocals alone merit a place in The North, I merely posed the question to see what others thought. It is probably an album that is at the very limit of what could rightly be included that clan though (along with a number of doom metal bands that utilise black metal vocals, but have few other BM influences).

I must also defer to you on what constitutes post-metal, as it is a genre I have only recently become acquainted with to any degree. I do enjoy some of it very much, but that I have listened to kind of reminds me of 70's progressive electronic music in that it's soundscapes feel quite passive and engender atmospheres to sink into rather than actively engage with. (I'm probably not expressing what I'm trying to say very well here, but as I say, my experience with the genre is limited and I defer to those with more expertise on the subject).

A direct quote from my review of some months ago - "In fact, I hear very little black metal on here other than in the vocals. " So I absolutely agree with you on this one Daniel. The question then is, does only having a vocal relationship with black metal constitute a strong enough case for inclusion in the North. When I refer to them as a black metal band, I do so in the same way I would refer to Enslaved, as a band that has developed from black metal beginnings that still retain a vestigial link back to their origins. In both band's cases I think it is also fair to say that even in the early days they were already stretching beyond the genre's confines.

Something I did refer to in my review that I would like an opinion on is that I believe this album exhibits a huge influence from UK space rock pioneers Hawkwind. I don't know how familiar you are with them, but listen to Choose Your Masques from 1982 and then Uusi Teknokratica and tell me there's no relationship. Also the driving rhythms overlaid by electronics is classic Hawkwind.

I can't help thinking that if one black metal band can break out of the scene and gain some kind of mainstream acclaim, then it is going to be Oranssi Pazuzu. I believe the avant-garde tag for this release is grossly misleading and I would argue that rather, this is true progressive music (be it metal or not) that is born of minds similar to true visionaries of the progressive rock era like Robert Fripp and Peter Hammil, but with all the armoury of modern music-making at their disposal. I understand why you would want to tag this as post-metal, but personally when I think of post-metal I think of somewhat passive music and this is anything but passive.

A lot of shit is talked about a lot of bands being original in metal when, let's be brutally honest here, they really aren't that much, but in OP's case this is a true statement. This, along with 2016's Värähtelijä and the Waste of Space Orchestra collaboration with Dark Buddha Rising, are three of the finest, most original albums to emerge from the metal scene in the past decade and should already have cemented the band's legendary status.

Ben, please add Germany's Sacred Gate.

Unlike about 90% of metal fans (it seems) I'm not really keen on fantasy art, although I do love good sci-fi artwork, so probably The Infinite would be one. Natural landscapes are also a big favourite, especially mountains, snow, forests and water, so The North obviously. The melancholic aspect of a lot of The Fallen artwork also has much appeal, so I would make that my third. Also any clan that has Mariusz Lewandowski artwork!

DsO are another band that I haven't listened to anything like enough. Obviously I'm familiar with Paracletus (everybody should be, let's face it) but other than their latest I am largely ignorant of the rest of their output. On the strength of this and Paracletus I obviously need to remedy this situation. Deathspell's music (at least that that I have heard) is all about acute angles and sharp edges that never allow the listener to really get comfortable and never more so than on this single track epic. Apparently, the Katechon is that that prevents the world falling into chaos and disorder and a bulwark against Armageddon, hence the chaining of such would result in just those things (which would probably amuse the DsO guys no end!) Unfortunately it seems that DsO are another band who have at least one member with some quite reprehensible views and that is always disappointing, but judging them solely on musical output, they are a challenging and interesting listen in the main and a band that any fan of extreme metal should be familiar with.

I've just posted a review and I've got to say, I have been absolutely blown away by just how awesome this album is. I have lots of reservations about certain aspects of death metal, but when it gets it right, as it most definitely does here, then it can be truly mind-blowing. I'm already touting this as one of my five star albums after only handful of listens. Another winner from me from the Featured Releases, after the Shining and Neptunian Maximalism albums from last month I'm beginning to feel a bit spoiled!

From this month's Horde featured release. The bass sound on this track is f***ing insane!!

I agree, the gothic metal aspect is nothing like as obvious here as in a lot of gothic death doom (and is better for it!) It's been mentioned before, but I think there is a case for separating true gothic metal from other metal sub-genres that may have some gothic atmosphere, such as death doom or black metal. At best these should only have gothic as a secondary genre, as they would say on RYM.

I actually reviewed this for The Pit clan challenge a bit back. As I said there, I never really gave Testament much credit, coming a bit late to the game as they did. In the past couple of years though I have been re-evaluating them and have recognised them for the damn fine thrash outfit they are, turning out to be more consistent long-term than three of the big four as the years have passed. Alex Skolnick's scintillating solos and Chuck Billy's vocals are as good as any thrashers have produced and the songs are anthemic and  memorable, with no duffers in the whole 38 minutes. A neck-wrenching 4.5/5 from me.

I must admit I only use Spotify to listen to the MA playlists, so I have no idea how they handle splits. I do listen to a lot of stuff via Bandcamp and bands quite often only post their own tracks from split releases and not the other band's. Usually to get the whole release together you would need to go to the label's page rather than the individual artist's.

I am one of those Luddites who still loves collecting physical releases and so split releases are probably more relevant to old gits like me, still living in the past, rather than all you young tech-heads and your new-fangled streaming thingummies!!

Haven't you heard Värähtelijä either Daniel? Damn, get on that one soon as you can, it was my AOTY for 2016. 

Shit, I hope it's better than that cover, Daniel!

You are right Xephyr that there is a big difference between a split and a collaboration, look no further than the superb Bell Witch / Aerial Ruin collaboration, The Stygian Bough which is one of my favourite albums of the year. A collaboration does tend to be more coherent because the bands involved are working on a common piece. Splits however, are often used to showcase different bands separately and one band that is less familiar can get exposure on the back of another. The Nechochwen / Panopticon split is just such a beast due to the critical acclaim Austin Lunn has garnered over recent years. Because the two bands usually work independently on a split it can have mixed results, which is why I ask how people think of them. Sometimes the bands complement each other really well and others are not necessarily a good fit. Maybe the split is a format that has had it's time, but I don't think so because, as I say, there have been some belters this year in my opinion.

Thanks for that Daniel. For the first time this month I listened to nearly all the featured releases and although I can't honestly say I enjoyed them all, it was an interesting undertaking nonetheless and one I am hoping to continue going forward, so hopefully I'll be able to come up with something to contribute to the discussions, especially regarding stuff I probably wouldn't normally listen to.

Just out of interest Daniel, whilst going through this month's featured releases, I was wondering what your criteria was for selection as it seems like quite a challenging task.

1. Black Sabbath - "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" (1973) 5/5

I can't in good conscience have any other of these nine albums at #1 as this has been a favourite of mine for well over forty years now. A proto-prog metal classic as the Sabs stretched themselves a bit and added Rick Wakeman on keyboards.

2. Shining - "V - Halmstad" (2007) 4.5/5

Despite not being a huge fan of Shining previously I was knocked out by this album. I found a profound connection to it on a personal level. Emotional.

3. Neptunian Maximalism - "Eons" (2020) 4.5/5

The thought of a two-hour avant-jazz album had me positively sweating with dread. But this isn't that album at all I'm absolutely thrilled to report. Yes, sure there are avant-jazz elements present, obviously, but I consider them merely icing, the heart and soul of this album is the percussion and it's ritualistic and tribal rhythms that call to something buried deep in the human psyche. I'm a big fan of ritual ambient artists like Draugurinn and Forndom, but this is on a different level completely. I must admit though that I did wonder how it became featured on a metal website, until the third section at least where it's drone metal credentials kick in. I still have some issue with the solely jazz sections and it is a long album, but these are minor gripes as this is something truly outside my comfort zone that I absolutely love. The trouble with it is, it has made me an unfaithful music listener now - I'm listening to something else, but I'm thinking of this while I'm doing so!

4. Disillusion - "Back To Times Of Splendor" (2004) 3.75/5

I dislike melo-death intensely and prog metal to me means Dream Theater-style musical wankery, so I didn't approach this with much relish. But, it is actually pretty decent, albeit with a couple of provisos. I'm still not sold on the melo-death sections particularly, although they are far from the worst I've ever heard and, secondly, the vocalist causes me a few issues. I think it was Vinny who said that the vocalist is stealing a living, it appears he's stealing it off Serj Tankian and Corey Taylor. I actually don't mind the SOAD sounding parts, but I hate that Corey Taylor-like melo-death vocal style and here it's especially horrible. But that aside, musically I enjoyed huge swathes of this, it reminds me of a heavier version of Polish prog-rock outfit Riverside, a modern prog band I particularly enjoy. Vocals apart, it's well performed and varied with some decent prog songwriting, so I'm gonna call this a (qualified) success.

5. Undeath - "Lesions Of A Different Kind" (2020) 3.5/5

Solid, if somewhat predictable, OSDM.

6. Warbringer - "Weapons Of Tomorrow" (2020) 3/5

Not bad modern thrash, but I gotta say no classic and on those occasions when they slow it down it pretty much sucks.

7. Faith No More - "Angel Dust" (1992) 2/5

American college-kid party music. Unlike the Shining and Neptunian Maximalism albums I was unable to relate to this in any way. I didn't even hate it, I just found it incomprehensible and could make no connection to the music either intellectually or emotionally. A musical placebo.

8. Strapping Young Lad - "Alien" (2005)

I haven't scored this because I honestly couldn't be arsed listening to it. I'm one of those unhip types who thinks Devin Townsend is massively overrated. A friend did encourage me to listen to it years ago and I remember not being enamoured of it. Sorry.

9. Gaza - "I Don't Care Where I Go When I Die" (2006) 0.5/5

So this is mathcore is it? Well, Fuck that! this is literally one of the most awful metal albums I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Sounds like a toddler throwing a tantrum in the supermarket because his mum won't buy him his favourite snack - if I wanted to hear that then I'd take a trip to the local Aldi. If I never hear this again it'll be too soon.

So, in summary, a couple of really amazing discoveries for me (thanks Daniel), an old favourite, a prog surprise, a couple of solid, if somewhat unremarkable releases, a couple of non-entities and an utter bag of shite (as we say round here)! The good outweigh the bad however, so thumbs up!!

Ah, that may be the issue. Thanks Daniel.

I think you can rate on one listen because, to be honest, ratings can often be quite fluid anyway. I do agree though that it is impossible to review an album in any meaningful way without several listens as to do so without delving into it further does the music (and the artist) a great disservice. This is often why I will submit a rating initially but not a review, the rating acting as a placeholder until I get round to giving the album the attention it deserves. If I can't be bothered to go back to it for whatever reason, then I am plenty happy enough for the rating to stand. For this reason I view unsubstantiated ratings as more of a rough idea of how an album is considered, whereas a review is far more relevant as to how a listener considers a release.

To return to my original point, maybe not everyone does have a subconscious bias, but I still think it is a very special critic who can put all internal biases to one side when passing judgement on something as subjective as music. Maybe I feel this because I have no musical ability whatsoever so the technical aspect of music is as impenetrable to me as quantum mechanics (which some dickheads say is why I listen to so much metal) and for this reason I have to judge a release on how it affects me personally and that will always inevitably butt up against personal bias.

I've been listening to Sodom's 2016 album Decision Day this morning. I thought "Actually this is a really solid album", but despite that, because it's Sodom and I know what the band are (were?) capable of, I couldn't in good conscience give it better than a 3.5. Now, had that album been put out by an unknown band, would I have scored it better? Maybe. Anyway I got to thinking and came to the conclusion that I subconsciously have a problem with great bands producing good, not great, product. So my question is, what are your conscious or unconscious biases when rating albums - and please don't tell me you don't have any, because if you think that's the case then, sorry, you do, you just don't recognise any of them!

I must second all Daniel's comments and add that I really appreciate all the effort and financial commitment that Ben puts into the site. Speaking as someone who doesn't really like internet forums, the one exception is here on The Academy and that is down to the openness and welcoming nature of the site as a whole which is absolutely driven by Ben (and Daniel) and their friendly and respecting attitude to all the members. We may not be large in number but we are all  dedicated and that is wholly down to those two guys I think. 

Also, it was mightily impressive how speedily and efficiently you implemented the new changes Ben and I think the site is just going from strength to strength. The most fun metal website on the internet - there, put that on the poster!

Hi Ben, I know I've still got a number of requests pending, but could you please add Spain's Saturno and their debut album Menhir (2020).

Hi Ben, please add Italy's Black / Doom outfit Nero or the Fall of Rome (also in The Fallen).

Also:

Old Corpse Road (UK)

Ayr (US)

The Infernal Sea (UK)

Disamara (Italy)

Czort (Poland)

Ben, I noticed that the drop down box of member's names is a list, not a searchable box. Whilst OK at the moment, would this not become difficult to navigate as the membership grew? If you had to search a list of hundreds, or even thousands of names it would become unusable wouldn't it? Other than that I really love the new listing features.

Ben could you please add:

Towards Atlantis Lights (Italy/UK)

Deathbell (France)

Angel of Damnation (Germany)

Leechfeast (Slovenia)

Faustcoven (Norway)

Barren Altar (US)

Alms (US)

Green Druid (US)

Ursa (US)

and the Mammoth Weed Wizard Bastard / Slomatics split album, Totems.

Unfortunately it isnt, it's just the corporate ravens feeding on the unseeing eyes of the corpse of a once mighty warrior ...Black Metal was his name!

Would it also be possible to sort by most recently made, so that you could view any newer lists first?

Yeah, I reckon so. So default to most likes, but allow for order of creation.

Yeah, sounds good, Ben.

Would it also be possible to sort by most recently made, so that you could view any newer lists first?

Hi Ben. I'm sorry for being thick, but I'm still not getting it. When you say you select, clan, genre and year do you mean via a function that has yet to be added or do we need to state all those things in the list title? I have begun another list but have not been asked to select any of those categories anywhere.

Sorry if I haven't been clear, but this is a design discussion. I haven't added the categories or filters yet. I just wanted to gather some feedback from the community before I go down that path. There could be a better way to configure things that I haven't thought of.

Right, Ben I'm with you now. That sounds great. As the number of lists increases there would definitely be a need to filter them I think. What about a way to "favourite" or "like" a particular list then within any given category allow them to be ordered by number of "likes" so presumably the more popular (and by inference, better or more useful) lists are shown first?

Works great Ben and I'm certain it will be very useful going forward. Although selecting to only show releases you've rated whilst at the same time excluding any releases you have already rated unsurprisingly yields zero returns!

Hi Ben. I'm sorry for being thick, but I'm still not getting it. When you say you select, clan, genre and year do you mean via a function that has yet to be added or do we need to state all those things in the list title? I have begun another list but have not been asked to select any of those categories anywhere.

Great playlist this month Daniel, one of the best yet. Sorry though Vinny, the Jute Gyte track went right over my head. Summoning are only really any good for table-top RPGing and I found the Ensiferum track a bit fromage-friendly! I was also wondering why the Deafheaven track was so crap until... Bam!! When it gets going it is amazing. Everything else was terrific and to be honest how can any playlist that features Immortal, Bathory and Darkthrone not be awesome? A few I need to check out further too, such as Wiegedood and Anorexia Nervosa (I remember not being impressed by them before, but their track on here is very good indeed).

Ha, Jute Gyte is a challenge alright.

Yeah, he sure is. I really enjoyed his Perdurance album, but I'm a bit too much of a literal person for the more avant-garde stuff. Still, he's obviously ridiculously talented, so good luck to him.

Great playlist this month Daniel, one of the best yet. Sorry though Vinny, the Jute Gyte track went right over my head. Summoning are only really any good for table-top RPGing and I found the Ensiferum track a bit fromage-friendly! I was also wondering why the Deafheaven track was so crap until... Bam!! When it gets going it is amazing. Everything else was terrific and to be honest how can any playlist that features Immortal, Bathory and Darkthrone not be awesome? A few I need to check out further too, such as Wiegedood and Anorexia Nervosa (I remember not being impressed by them before, but their track on here is very good indeed).

Hi Ben, I am a little unsure what you mean. Do you intend to have different sections within the list section to differentiate years, genres etc or do you mean to have a list section within each separate clan? The latter may help tidy things up for clan-specific lists leaving the main lists section for more generalised listings, such as "Greatest Albums of the 1990's" or other less genre-specific lists.

This is a tricky subject and conversation to have on a music website forum, to be honest. I agree with Daniel on a purely musical basis that for the vast majority of DSBM the differentiation is purely thematic and I also agree that a lot of it is self-pitying. However, I disagree that it doesn't fit in with the black metal aesthetic. BM has long been about negativity, misanthropy and hatred so surely the ultimate expression of that aesthetic is self-hatred and self-destruction. It's easy to hate something else, much more difficult to hate yourself.

A lot of DSBM however sounds disingenious and is made by people who have probably just latched on to the themes with no real understanding of depression and mental illness, like a majority of black metal bands who sing about Satanism aren't actually Satanists. For me, this is why albums like V-Halmstad and Death Pierce Me are so affecting, because they get under the skin of those issues and through their music a listener who suffers from those same issues can connect more deeply. Sure to those never affected by those same issues they may sound lame or inexplicable and if that's the case then I'm made up for you, but those records can also mean a lot on a personal level to others for their ability to show a certain type of listener that they are not alone in their thoughts and feelings. Also no one would ever kill themselves because of a record, despite what Tipper Gore and Mary Whitehouse would have had people believe in the 80s. I know many will probably scoff at these comments, but frankly I don't give a shit!

New York thrash metal at its finest.

...yes it is!

Ben, could you please add Aphonic Threnody.

Hi Ben could you please add Portugal's Onirik.

Interesting that you mention Silencer there at the end, Daniel. Now, just for the record, I am not a massive fan of DSBM particularly, but V-Halmstad and Silencer's Death Pierce Me are two of the most interesting and emotionally resonant black metal releases I have ever heard. Although it is true that Silencer divide opinion, especially with respect to the vocals, personally I love that album. Considering BM can be so hokey at times with it's satanic and evil  imagery (and don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it) these are two albums that actually seem to mean something deeper and I find I connect with on another level. Again, great choice.

Have been giving the new lists option a go and, well Ben, you've really gone and done it now!!

Awesome...

Excellent work Ben. Really stoked that the charts have been expanded, now they are no longer just the tip of the iceberg!

Great to see the charts expanded. I don't know if it's just me, but there seems to be a problem. When I went onto page two of The Pit chart, it shows the second page of the chart for the combined clans, not just for The Pit releases. Oh, and for The North.

According to RYM the sub-genres of doom metal are death doom, funeral doom and so-called traditional doom. So if it's not death or funeral doom it's traditional. In other words it is JUST FUCKIN' DOOM!!!! 

New single from Green Druid's upcoming album, At the Maw of Ruin due out 4th December.