Sonny's Forum Replies

The humppaa-influenced, folk metal trolls Finntroll had their new album out September 18th and it is a lot of fun. One of the few black metal albums you can imagine people dancing to!

In light of the new rules I will replace Esoteric's Descent with Rotting in Dereliction which is also from A Pyrrhic Existence.

Also we don't seem to have stoner metal covered so would like to suggest Acid King's 2 Wheel Nation from III.

I guess we're coming from differing viewpoints on this one, Daniel. It never even crossed my mind that Funeral Doom was considered a niche sub-genre within The Fallen as, to me, it is probably the purest expression of Doom Metal. I suppose I must accept that the more palatable sub-genres like Gothic Metal will dominate the clan and adjust my view of what that means accordingly. And yes, there are definitely plenty of quality Funeral Doom tracks under twenty minutes in length. 

Secondly, are we also assuming that most people are put off by long track lengths or are they equally as likely to have their mind blown by them? I never really hear classical music fans complaining that Beethoven's symphonies are "OK, but a bit too long". Bell Witch's Mirror Reaper made an impressive degree of crossover into more mainstream acceptance and that's over eighty minutes long.

Lastly, I never considered that anyone would think I was trying to dominate the playlist by suggesting a lengthy track or two and if that is the case I apologise, that was never my intention. Anything I have suggested, as with yourself and the Pig Destroyer track, is because I think it is awesome and believe others would be stoked to hear it too. As I said earlier, I don't listen to the playlists to hear stuff I'm already familiar with - I can listen to that any time - I want to hear something unfamiliar that lights my fire such as the Pelican and Cult of Luna tracks on August and September's playlists and my suggestions are based on that desire for others and nothing more.

The latest single from Pallbearer's upcoming Forgotten Days album:

Daniel, whilst I understand why you have implemented a twenty minute rule for track durations, I feel that you are arbitrarily limiting the playlist, especially in a clan like the Fallen where I believe most adherents have to have a more patient approach to their listening due to the very nature of the music they favour. Surely it would be better to judge a track's impact on a case by case basis without applying pre-determined restrictions. Isn't extreme metal about defying accepting norms, not being restricted by them? Is a nineteen minute track really more acceptable than a 23 minute track if the longer is better? Funeral Doom and Drone especially rely on lengthy compositions to create an atmosphere and would be least well-served by the rule. Of course you couldn't include something like Mirror Reaper, but surely common sense has to be assumed. 

That Pig Destroyer track was always going to be controversial as I think you knew when you included it in the playlist, but by adding it at the end of the list anyone could say, I've heard enough and just end the session. I know I made a negative comment about it, but that was unrelated to it's length, unfortunately it was just too experimental for my taste, but I don't regret listening to it. I am much more interested in hearing tracks I'm not already familiar with on the playlist and would prefer to find one thirty minute killer than half a dozen meh tracks. There's no need to include ultra-long tracks every month, but why not occasionally if an individual track merits it? You can't please all the people all the time and not everyone will love every track, but why should they? If the purpose of the playlists is to showcase the clans then why ignore the fact that The Fallen often involves lengthy compositions? Sorry to go on, but as you may guess I am extremely passionate about doom metal and I think it needed saying.

A band new to me is Canadian doomsters The White Swan, who feature alt-metal band Kittie's drummer Mercedes Lander on vocals, guitar, keyboards and drums.

They have  a four-track EP called Nocturnal Transmision released September 18th that is pretty damn good:

Hi Ben, please add Canadian doom band The White Swan.

Three things I have learnt / relearnt from the playlist:

1. I really love black metal.

2. I really dislike folk metal.

3. I actually like Shining a lot more than I thought I did.

There's a couple of well-respected albums on there that I've not checked out yet and I definitely now intend to - Fluisteraas and Oathbreaker.

That Aquilus track was very interesting to. I'm intrigued to listen to the whole album now.

I'm with the consensus on this one. Being a cover artwork junkie I too am enjoying finding covers I may never have come across whilst checking back with the gallery every few days. Great feature to be able to filter covers you haven't rated yet - saves delving through them all again.

Another decent album released Sept 11th - trad doom with a 1970's hard rock swagger from Michigan's Cruthu.

Ben, please add Void Rot's new album Descending Pillars.

Brazilians Jupiterian release their third full-length, Protosapien, Sept 11th on Transcending Obscurity Records.

Crushing death doom / sludge that comes from the abyssal depths.

Void Rot's debut album, Descending Pillars is cavernous and menacing old-school death / doom similar to Atavisma with whom they shared a split earlier in the year.

Released September 11th on Everlasting Spew:

Could you add Ieschure (Ukraine) and Ovnev (US) please Ben.

Hi Ben, please add Purification's new album Perfect Doctrine.

I notice you haven't rated this one yet Sonny. I'm keen to hear your thoughts on it as I've always thought it was a very solid piece of Bay Area thrash.

Missed this rec, sorry. Yeah, a lot of Exodus, including this, I hadn't listened to in years so haven't rated them yet.

Played this again today and enjoyed it. It still thrashes pretty damn hard. 4/5.

I've posted a review, so here's an edited version:

As with many visionary metal bands, Venom were derided mercilessly in their early days. I remember the UK music press (including Kerrang!) lambasting them at every turn as a band that couldn't even play their instruments properly. Of course, those same people have no recollection of ever having done so and claim to have been supporters of the band from the outset - hypocrites. Of course Welcome to Hell sounds sloppy, but that only adds to it's charm. The album took the speed metal of Motörhead, added some cartoonish satanic imagery (that later bands took FAR too seriously) and then went at it with a youthful enthusiasm born of the UK DIY punk scene. Bold, brash and full of balls, this was an album that was made by a band who clearly did not give a damn what anybody thought about them. Often lumped in with the NWOBHM, I would argue this has far more in common with Discharge, GBH and The Exploited than Iron Maiden or Saxon, but they were too punk for the metal crowd and too metal for the punks, so for a long time had to plough their own furrow with only their diehard fans for company. The band's outsider cred is what probably endeared them to the even younger up and coming bands they influenced including Metallica, Bathory, Mayhem and the band probably closest to them in term of attitude, Darkthrone. I would argue that without Motörhead there woud never have been a Venom, but certainly without Venom there would not have been a black metal scene as we recognise it.

Hi Ben, please add Italian post-metal project Angela Martyr.

Hi Ben, could you add the Hoffman Brothers' pre- and post-Deicide band Amon please.

Already out of 30 possible choices we have 24 different tracks.

As I suspected, Sabbath wrote so many classic songs there is a huge number of contenders and everyone's list will almost certainly be different.

Once more, great playlist Daniel. That DJing experience is really coming in handy! Although I must admit the ending had me a bit flummoxed.

Anyway here's a few random thoughts on the tracks:

01. Cult of Luna – “Finland” (from “Somewhere Along the Highway”, 2006)
Atmo-sludge, post-metal, whatever you wish to call it is still a relatively new musical discovery for me apart from Isis, but with this and last month's offering from Pelican I am finding myself drawn to it more and more. Properly atmospheric.

02. Sleep – “Dragonaut” (from “Sleep’s Holy Mountain”, 1992)
The stoner doom pioneers wreathe Master of Reality / Vol.4 Sabbathian riffs in dopesmoke and force them straight to the mid-brain.

03. Cathedral – “Schizoid Puppeteer” (from “Serpent’s Gold”, 2004)
Originally only available on the 1996 Rise Above sampler Dark Passages II, this is one of Cathedral's great unknown tracks. Stoner metal songwriting ambition that Lee Dorrian excels at.

04. Boris – “Introduction” (from “Akuma No Uta”, 2005)
Wall of sound drone as Boris seem to do better than almost everyone else. Like it.

05. Pallbearer – “Foreigner” (from “Sorrow & Extinction”, 2012)
After a gentle strummed intro Pallbearer kick in with a crushing riff for ten minutes of ultra-heavy "pure" doom metal that the band have never bettered.

06. Trees Of Eternity – “Gallows Bird” (from “Hour Of The Nightingale”, 2016)
Despite not being a big fan of this album I actually really like this when heard in the context of the playlist, particularly after the cataclysmic heaviness of Pallbearer.

07. Draconian – “The Apostasy Canticle” (from “Arcane Rain Fell”, 2005)
As I've said before, I'm not a big fan of Gothic Doom, but this I like and will certainly be giving this album a spin.

08. My Dying Bride – “She Is The Dark” (from “The Light At the End Of The World”, 1999)
See above, although in light of the last couple of tracks, maybe I'm better disposed to gothic doom than I suspected!

09. Shape Of Despair – “Reaching The Innermost” (from “Monotony Fields”, 2015)
Funeral doom is one of my absolute favourite genres and this is one of the (many) reasons why. Bleak and claustrophobic as layer upon layer of melancholic atmosphere are built up to envelop the listener in a lightless blanket of doom.

10. Pig Destroyer – “Natasha” (from “Natasha” EP, 2008)
OK, I'll have to get back to you on this one!?

Demolition Hammer - Carnivorous Obsession from Epidemic of Violence (1992)

Machine Head - Imperium from Through the Ashes of Empires (2003)

Exumer - Shadows of the Past from Rising from the Sea (1987)

Mystras - The Murder of Wat Tyler from Castles Conquered and Reclaimed (2020)

Esoctrilihum - Exh-Enî Söph (1st Passage: Exiled From Sanity) from Eternity of Shaog (2020)

Armagedda - Deathminded from The Final War Approaching (2001)

Too right! One of my favourite albums of the 80s.

Consider me a fan of the playlists, I enjoyed listening to this even more than I expected. A couple of old favourites and plenty of really good stuff I hadn't heard before. Nicely done, Daniel.

Some thoughts on the actual tracks themselves:

1. Boris - "EVOL" (from "LφVE & EVφL", 2019)
8/10. I love Feedbacker, but aren't super-familiar with Boris other than that.
Love this - will check the album out soon.

2. Pelican - "Last Day Of Winter" (from “The Fire In Our Throats Will Beckon The Thaw”, 2005)
10/10. Never heard these guys before. This is great - right up my alley!

4. Paradise Lost – “Faith Divides Us – Death Unites Us” (from “Faith Divides Us – Death Unites Us”, 2009)
6/10. I'm no big fan of PL and I don't feel this changing my mind.

5. Crowbar – “Planets Collide” (from “Odd Fellows Rest”, 1998)
7/10. Another band I'm unfamiliar with. Not bad at all, it's sludge has a kind of grungy vibe to it.
Great guitar tone.

6. Om – “Bedouin’s Vigil” (from “Bedouin’s Vigil/Assyrian Blood” split single with Six Organs Of Admittance, 2006)
6/5. I like Pilgrimage. This is OK, but sounds a bit weak and just sort of peters out at the end.

7. Domovoyd – “Domovoyage” (from ”Domovoyd”, 2015)
8/10. Gets off to a slow start but builds nicely. Has a rocket-fuelled space rock vibe to it that I'm quite keen on.

8. Candlemass – “Mirror Mirror” (from “Ancient Dreams”, 1988)
8/10. From my least favoured of Candlemass' first four albums, this is possibly it's best track.

9. Graveworm – “Scars Of Sorrow” (from “Collateral Defect”, 2007)
5/10. Sorry, not my sort of thing at all.

10. Skumring – “De glemte tider” (from “De glemte tider”, 2005)
9/10. Love this album. Love this track - ethereal and melancholy.

11. Saturnus – “Starres” (from “For The Loveless Lonely Nights” EP, 1998)
8/10. I like Saturnus' brand of death doom, but haven't heard this before. Like it.

12. Corrupted – “Inactive” (from “Northgrush/Corrupted” split, 1997)
7/10. Another band I'm totally unfamiliar with, but this is some seriously ultra-heavy shit. Pity the production is also shit, but I'll definitely be checking these guys out further.

Never heard these guys before listening to the MA playlist.

This track is amazing:

OK, so I didn't realise that there was a free option on Spotify!

Now I do, so I'm good to go...

I don't have a Spotify subscription, but I will try to replicate the playlist using the means at my disposal. For what it's worth here's a few suggestions:

Esoteric - Descent from A Pyrrhic Existence (2019)

Colosseum - Towards the Infinite from Chapter 2: Numquam (2009)

Electric Wizard - Supercoven from the Supercoven EP (1998)

Cathedral - Schizoid Puppeteer from the Serpent's Gold compilation album (2010)

MSW - Humanity from Obliviosus (2020)

Solstice - Cromlech from New Dark Age (1998)

Winter - Servants of the Warsmen from Into Darkness (1990)

Sleep - Dragonaut from Holy Mountain (1992)

Pallbearer - Foreigner from Sorrow and Extinction (2012)

Hi Ben, could you please add your compatriot, Egyptian Book of the Dead-obsessed The Horn. Also German Atmo-Black / Death Metal crew Cinereous Rain. Thanks a lot.

I have listened to quite a bit of DSBM and I hear absolutely no reason to include it in The Fallen, despite the definition of it on RYM mentioning doom metal, in reality very little, if any, doom is present in the vast majority of releases.

How about the Pagan black metal & Depressive black metal subgenres? Different enough to warrant their own subgenres?

I'm with you on this one Daniel. The biggest, though not only, differences are thematic. Sure, DSBM usually has a desperate quality to it, but as Daniel asks, is it enough to really necessitate a separate sub-genre? As an extension, does MA really need any sub-genre that is just thematically diverse rather than musically? If so then why not go all-in and include cosmic (or space) black metal and satanic black metal?

Despite having forwarded a case for a couple of sub-genres, I would like to play devil's advocate. As we try to force art in general and music specifically into smaller and smaller boxes, do we run the risk of losing sight of what makes it so great to begin with? As the number of micro-genres increases people seem to get more and more fraught about which exact tiny box a specific release should be assigned to. Witness the petty and essentially meaningless sniping in the comment boxes on RYM's genre voting pages for proof. Genre voting seems not to allow fans to just be fans, they must also be analytical machines who can't be allowed to just enjoy an album, but have to have a sweeping and thorough knowledge of all genres thus allowing them to measure any specific release against rigidly defined parameters in order to come to an informed decision about which pigeonhole to place it in. Failure to do so correctly may then result in derision and insult.

I must admit that I like the fact that Metal Academy isn't too specific in it's genre selection. Do we really need to break a main genre like Doom, Death or Black metal into anything more than a handful of easily differentiated sub-genres? Surely any more specific genre indicators are better as part of a review.

Just thought that I'd posit a differing viewpoint and see what others think.

I don't know enough about dissonant death metal to comment, but how about dissonant black metal as is very big within the Icelandic black metal community?

Psychedelic Doom and Stoner Metal are two very different things Andi. Psych-doom incorporates elements of psychedelic rock and Heavy Psych into a doom metal sound using elements such as Hammond keyboards, flute etc. (early Blood Ceremony). Stoner Metal is based in stoner rock, but with a heavier "metal" edge, whilst maintaining the stoner rock "groove" (Ogre, Cathedral). Stoner doom takes the stoner ethos and combines it with heavy doom sounds to present an even heavier, oppressive, "stoned" atmosphere (Sleep, Electric Wizard).

I too, vote "classic". Classic is one of those words in the English language that has more than one meaning and doesn't exclusively indicate time at all - a bottle of classic coke isn't 100 years old is it - it means it's formulated to a classic recipe and I would say the same is true of a metal release that follows the same formula as the genre's "classic" releases.

I've never been too comfortable with the NWOBHM tag either - it was a scene and isn't a genre, it's like having a "Bay area thrash" genre. In fact, a number of bands from the NWOBHM would struggle to make a case for being metal bands at all, eg Demon. Agree on atmo-sludge too.

A genre I tried to get approved on RYM (unsuccessfully) was Blackened Doom and I would like to suggest it again here. What about the metal genres that incorporate psychedelic elements, such as psych-doom and psychedelic black metal (eg Oranssi Pazuzu)?

I must confess I really like the sound of Classic as a genre term for releases that are pure embodiments of a genre's prime characteristics, it has a certain gravitas to it. Classic Black Metal is a great term that should already be a thing. Maybe this will be the birth of a number of widely accepted new genres of metal! 

On the point of Classic Doom, I have never been a fan of the Traditional Doom Metal tag and tend to ignore it on RYM,  preferring to vote such releases as just plain Doom Metal. So, Ben, do you propose to have both Traditional Doom as a sub-genre and Classic Doom or just one of those because, to my mind, Trad Doom releases would all come under the Classic Doom umbrella.

While I'm on the subject of doom metal sub-genres, would you consider Epic Doom Metal as valid? This isn't recognised by RYM, but I believe there are enough adherents and it is distinguishable sufficiently from other doom metal sub-genres to justify inclusion on MA.

To be honest, it doesn't matter to me one bit whether Into the Pandemonium is adjudged avant-garde metal or not, that's usually a genre (in all art) that I give a wide berth to as I typically find it to be pretentious and, in the case of music (to me anyway) often unlistenable which Into the Pandemonium definitely isn't. I maintain the point (and I'm not implying that you're guilty of this, Daniel) that people will continue to redefine the parameters of what constitutes a given genre, or even historical context of music from a point looking backwards. As a keen history buff anyway, I believe it's important to maintain a factual and consistent narrative to allow understanding of how the present was shaped.

Maybe this wasn't the best place to instigate this discussion and I certainly respect Daniel's view on this point, ItP certainly was a huge influence on the development of gothic metal (although I try not to hold that against it too much!) and it's experimental aspects don't hold up to modern standards, but I still maintain it was an important release at the time as a well-respected band attempted to expand what metal was capable of. I am unfamiliar with the Warning album you cite, Daniel, but I think you would agree, so we're most metal fans at the time, unlike Celtic Frost who were becoming a leading name in metal mid-80s and deserve their reputation as game-changers, which they themselves then went on to attempt to destroy, but that's a conversation for another day.

If the purpose of genre tagging is purely to point someone in the direction of music they might enjoy, then sure, I agree that the genre must be assessed from a modern perspective. All I wish to express, rightly or wrongly, is that I feel there has been a lot of re-evaluating of music that doesn't account for historical context. This isn't a phenomenon confined to metal, there are plenty of people who don't believe Bob Dylan, The Beatles or the Sex Pistols are much to write home about and that's fair enough, but I don't think their importance should be undermined because younger fans can't view them in context.

For the record, I agree with both Tymell and Daniel regarding the bands and albums they mention. Venom were speed metal and MF were heavy metal, but what about Hellhammer and Sodom's very early output? Similarly Reign in Blood and Pleasure to Kill aren't death metal, but what about Seven Churches? If this re-evaluation continues will we reach a time when even Bathory and Morbid Angel are no longer considered extreme metal, because they simply don't conform to redefined parameters?

I only raise the matter to trigger a debate, after all, the forums are a platform for honest, heartfelt discussion and it is something I feel passionately about and I am genuinely interested in what other metalheads think.

I think this poses an interesting question that has bothered me for quite a while as the history of music is revised from a modern viewpoint. Do we judge a release purely on how we feel it sounds today with benefit of hindsight or should it be considered in it's correct historical context?

This was an incredibly experimental release for metal at the time. No one sounded like this and it was certainly considered avant-garde back then. So, my question is, does that historical context now count for nothing as releases are to be judged solely from a modern perspective, compared against others which may well never even exist without the ground-breaking work of the former? 

I've also noticed in my rating patterns that I'm significantly harsher in my cover ratings. I guess because I seek out albums I think I'll enjoy, so those ratings lean towards the positive, whereas covers I just take as I find them.

Likewise. I've also noticed that a lot of bands I really respect have got fucking awful covers - Apostle of Solitude I'm looking at you (amongst others)!

Number of times already that I have mistakenly rated a release I have never heard whilst trying to rate just the artwork? 8.

Number of times already that I have mistakenly rated a release I have never heard whilst trying to rate just the artwork? 11 **Damn this is tricky**

Ben, could you also update Mesarthim's releases to include his recent The Degenerate Era album and Ninth Planet EP.

Well Ben, first off I'm always up for more shit to rate!

Secondly, I am a massive cover art nerd, as I believe you are too (I seem to remember we discussed it on RYM a while back). I love the idea of a chart purely based on the artwork - should present some interesting results. 

I have already started cover rating but I've encountered a bit of a dilemma. I began intending to rate covers purely on aesthetic appeal (to me). Now I'm not sure if that's what you intended when you introduced the feature. For example, do you think a cover should be rated highly if it is particularly appropriate to the atmosphere or aesthetic of the music, despite not being a great piece of "art"? I'm thinking here of genres like black metal with some very simple b&w covers that aren't necessarily great artistically, but really convey the music's ethos well (early Darkthrone albums for example) and the more shocking death metal related covers that I don't appreciate at all artistically but, again, very successfully convey the music's brutality. By extension is it valid to rate the cover of an album you have never listened to?

I guess ultimately it comes down to whether you consider an album's cover a piece of art, or a piece of packaging. Speaking for myseIf, I don't know much about art (or music), but I do know what I like - and what I don't!

Anyway must go, I got me some covers to rate...

Hi Ben, please add Greek blackened thrashers Ravencult (North / Pit)

Daniel, have you heard this from Greek blackened thrashers, Ravencult?

Hi Ben, could you update the releases for Déhà to include his 2020 albums A fleur de peau - II - Burdening Everyone and A fleur de peau - III - A Fire That Does Not Burn (the latter HAS been released, despite RYM giving August 28th as the release date (I have my copy) - see Bandcamp link below.

Bandcamp for A Fleur de Peau - III - A Fire that does not burn

2020 has been a pretty good year for stoner metal releases, despite everything.

My top 10 stoner metal albums so far this year:

#1 Rosy Finch - Scarlet

#2 Blacklab - Abyss

#3 Dopelord - Sign of the Devil

#4 Planet of the Dead - Fear of a Dead Planet

#5 Psyclops - Amalgam

#6 Elephant Tree - Habits

#7 Acid Mammoth - Under Acid Hoof

#8 Kurse - Prophecies, Episode I : The Awakening EP

#9 Forming the Void - Reverie

#10 Tortuga - Deities

Completely agree. This makes accessing the featured releases way simpler.

Just one question. Will this only list the current month's featured releases? Will we no longer be able to see what were featured releases in previous months?

I've previously submitted a review for Sunbather, so I'll summarise. Blackgaze is quite a divisive sub-genre of black metal, owing more to post-metal than black metal in a lot of cases. For me I find it is one of the metal genres that gives me the widest possible reactions, from wholly positive to inutterably negative. It is a sub-genre that, it seems to me, has very little margin for error. Like a high-wire walker, if the band get it wrong, then they crash and burn horribly. Fortunately Sunbather is one of the better Blackgaze albums, but with it's pink cover and positive vibe, it's never going to find favour with the legions of the trve. Me, I like it and it's great for when I want something a little more mellow, but with a bit of a black metal edge. Like just now, actually. In fact it's a perfect black metal Friday feeling of an album!

The main problem I can see with this feature Ben, is when you see an album is, say fifteen years old and you immediately go "Shit man, I can't believe that's fifteen years old, it only seems like yesterday!" A feature that forces us all to face our own mortality. What have you done?!