New Feature - Subgenres

After many weeks of grind (as in work, not grindcore), the subgenre feature has finally been completed. If you go into a release, you will see that there's a Sub-Genres box just beneath the Clans and Genres sections.

Here you will see which sub-genres have been submitted for the release, as well as the votes each of them have received. If you are in the same clan as a sub-genre, you will have the option to vote up or down for these submitted sub-genres. Note that every release on the site has pre-submitted sub-genres based on RYM voting.

Below the Sub-Genres box is the Submit New Sub-Genre section, where you can submit new sub-genres for the release. Note that you can only submit a sub-genre that belongs to the same clan as the release, and only if you are part of that clan. If you want to add a sub-genre to a release that belongs to a clan not currently attached to it, you'll need to get a submission through the Hall of Judgement first.

The below image is for Edge of Sanity's Crimson album. I'm in The Horde, but not The Infinite, so you'll notice that I can only vote on Melodic Death Metal and not Progressive Metal for this reason. When I click to add a new subgenre, I can only add sub-genre's from The Horde and not The Infinite.

Is all of this complicated? Certainly. Is it cool? We think so. The icing on the cake will appear shortly, which is the ability to filter by sub-genre on various pages, such as the Releases and Gallery pages.

My next task on Metal Academy will be to make the site more user-friendly, so all these clan-related features make sense to a newcomer (a challenge). In the meantime, we'd really love to hear your feedback on this new feature.

This is amazing! Not only do we get to see an album's subgenres in Metal Academy, we can also submit new ones for the album's clan that you are in. Thanks Ben! 

I like the feature! I notice some genres are not implemented (Trad Doom for example), are you you still in the process of adding, or do you plan to implement more over time? Or if not, perhaps there could be a discussion about what genres are being merged/left out and why?

Some subgenres are probably subject to debate like Trad Doom, as we've discussed in this thread: https://metal.academy/forum/17/thread/468. For example, Sonny thinks the "traditional" tag is pointless because it's not much different from plain Doom Metal. On the other hand, I think the "traditional" tag helps separate the old-school doom from the doom subgenres I like such as death-doom, gothic doom, and sludge doom. So unless we can all agree on the point and notability of a subgenre, it's probably best to let them be until Ben implements them, if he ever decides to do so...

I like the feature! I notice some genres are not implemented (Trad Doom for example), are you you still in the process of adding, or do you plan to implement more over time? Or if not, perhaps there could be a discussion about what genres are being merged/left out and why?

I was wondering how long it would be before someone picked up on that. Turns out not very long! 

The first thing to say is that it's very easy to add or remove subgenres. So if the community agrees that a subgenre should be added (or removed), then it can be done.

The second thing to say is that both Traditional Doom Metal and NWOBHM are both currently missing. The reason they're not there isn't because I made a decision to leave them out when this function was added. Over the years I've kept a running spreadsheet of every release I've added to the site. That spreadsheet included subgenres for each release, even though when I started I didn't know at the time that I would eventually add that functionality. I purposely entered Heavy Metal whenever NWOBHM appeared on RYM and Doom Metal instead of Traditional Doom Metal, for the simple reason that I personally prefer to use those terms. The spreadsheet ended up forming the basis for the import for the new subgenre functionality, which unfortunately meant that I'd either have to one by one manually update the subgenres on those releases before importing, or import what I had and figure out where to go from there. I went for the latter option, as this update already took a crapload of time to implement.

I should also point out that US Power Metal wasn't a thing on RYM when I started Metal Academy, so that wasn't imported either. Neither was Southern Metal for that matter, but I think that could be a primary genre?

Anyway, all this was a long way of saying "let's talk about whether any changes are needed". Everything we do here is for the community, so we want to hear your thoughts.

Personally I think Trad Doom should be added, because it sounds very different than bands like My Dying Bride for example. But, we should definitely have a discussion about where Epic Doom would fall without it's own subgenre. As I've said before, I find Epic Doom much closer to Trad Doom than pure Doom, as stylistically it tends to focus on groove and riffs rather than mood and atmosphere like later (now conventional) Doom.

NWOBHM is definitely fine being left out. Never understood people calling it a genre, it's like calling Visual Kei a genre (which RYM also does).

USPM I think should definitely be a subgenre. 

Southern Metal I haven't heard enough of to really debate. 

I just checked the list of primary metal genres on RYM. Not only is southern metal a newly added genre, but they also demoted melodic metalcore to a secondary subgenre of metalcore. Here's what would happen if the clans and genre list were edited to continue following the RYM list; Melodic metalcore wouldn't be a primary subgenre anymore, it would just be secondary subgenre of metalcore, but The Revolution Melodic Metalcore Clan Challenge can still be around as one of two secondary subgenre clan challenges (the other being The Infinite Atmospheric Sludge Clan Challenge). If the southern metal genre gets added here as a primary genre, I don't think it can fit in The Fallen because that clan already has so many genres (currently 5), so it might end up having its own clan, and sludge metal and stoner metal can move out of The Fallen into that new clan as well, since they're related. So while doom metal, gothic metal, and drone metal stay in The Fallen, southern metal, stoner metal, and sludge metal would have their own clan which we can name... The South! Do you think all that's possible, Ben? I both want and don't want it to happen (I love my melodic metalcore).

Also I'm unable to vote for or against melodic metalcore even though it's a Revolution primary genre (possibly later secondary to metalcore). Can you please fix that? Thanks!

The NWOBHM thing seems like a no-brainer to me. It's referring to a scene from a distinct period rather than any defined sound & encompassed everything from heavy metal to hard rock to speed metal to doom metal & even progressive rock. There is kind of a trademark NWOBHM sound but the problem is that only a portion of NWOBHM bands sounded like that & if a band came out of Sweden with exactly that sound today we wouldn't be able to label it as NWOBHM because a) it's not British & b) it's not from 1979-83. Also, literally every British heavy rock/metal band from that period is considered to be NWOBHM which tells you it's not a subgenre of music. 

I have very similar feelings about US power metal as the original term was only ever intended to draw together American bands from the 1983-89 period that dropped the hard rock influence the NWOBHM was built on & went for a chunkier yet still melodic metal sound. All of these bands fit comfortably into the heavy metal, speed metal or progressive metal categories anyway (see Savatage, Queensryche, Armored Saint, Manilla Road, etc.) so why bother labelling them with another tag that only confuses fans of the European model of power metal. There's also a bit of contradiction in the fact that the early works from bands like Anthrax & Laaz Rockit were strangely omitted from the label despite seemingly ticking all of the required boxes. These days it seems that the younger audience have started taking the tag literally & are labelling modern American bands that have adopted the European power metal model as US power metal (which kinda makes more sense to be honest) & that's seen the tags original intention being muddied significantly. My opinion is that the US power metal tag doesn't refer to a specific sound & is totally location & period-specific so it's a scene & not a subgenre. If an American release is legitimate power metal then simply label it as power metal. If it's some fairly powerful & intense heavy metal then label it as heavy metal.

The Southern metal thing has me baffled to be honest. I'm not really experienced enough in it to make a firm call one way or the other but my early experiences have seen very little need to separate the associated releases from heavy metal, stoner metal, sludge metal or any other subgenre for that matter. The tag is meant to indicate the strong influence of Southern rock bands like Lynard Skynard on an artist's sound however I haven't felt that the end result was even close to being significant enough for its own subgenre on the releases that I've heard to date & the basis for each band's sound always seems to fall into an already defined genre for its basic building blocks so I'd be more likely to see the term "Southern" as an additional descriptor than a primary genre, particularly as the bands it currently encompasses offer a wide array of sounds but just happen to have a little Southern influence. That shouldn't be a reason to link Down, Black Label Society & Glorior Belli together in my opinion. That's just my two cents but if we do end up including Southern Metal then The Fallen is the obvious choice as it seems to fit very comfortably there.

they also demoted melodic metalcore to a secondary subgenre of metalcore.

I agree with that move. I've always felt that it was completely unnecessary to have a separate primary for melodic metalcore, particularly as there isn't one for melodic death metal or melodic black metal. I've always felt that melodic metalcore was simply a variant of the conventional metalcore model & my experiences with putting together the monthly The Revolution Spotify playlists over the last six months have seen me finding significant crossover between the two genres.

The other new move that RYM have made is to move Nintendocore out from under Melodic Metalcore & into Hardcore Punk. This is a good move for mine as I've been hearing very little metal in the Nintendocore releases we've been including.

Daniel, I agree with all you've said, the only exception being on USPM. I understand it may have started as a regional/periodic term, but I think the style has some tried and true traits that have carried on to modern times that differentiate it. If there are still bands today that fit the label, that would mean the label transcended it's original limitation and became a true genre.

Here's my opinion; could you place all USPM bands into another genre if you really wanted to? Yeah, of course. If you're going for convenience or simplicity, there's really no reason to add USPM. But the same could be said about every Death Metal or Black Metal subgenre. USPM is a valid type of Heavy Metal that sounds about as different from pure Heavy Metal as Melodeath does from pure Death Metal. 

Although, perhaps a decision about this specific subgenre should be left to the rightful clan of the Guardians? Maybe clan members should decide what subgenres are worth adding to their own clans as they've (presumably) the most knowledge, experience, and passion for those genres.

I'm not by any means an expert on modern US power metal SilentScream213 so I'm very open to learning. Out of interest, what are the unique characteristics of modern US power metal that differentiate it from your garden varieties of heavy metal, power metal or speed metal? Do you have an example you could show us? Even if there are some unique identifying characteristics in modern US power metal, I still have a problem with labelling a subgenre with a location. If we have our genre tags right then they should be linking bands that sound the same together & if we were to go with US power metal as a subgenre of heavy metal then a Japanese band that had the US power metal sound would presumably be excluded from the same subgenre as the US bands. That doesn't make any sense to me. Perhaps if this is a unique sound then a new subgenre label is a better way to go?

For the record, we're not going for simplicity or convenience. Ben & I just want to make each subgenre relevant & feel that our competition often doesn't do that. The question we often ask ourselves when discussing these topics is "are there metalheads that like this subgenre but not it's primary genre & vice versa?" If the answer is no then it sometimes tells us that the subgenre isn't all that relevant, at least not within the clan context we have here. When it's yes (as it most certainly is with melodeath) then there's a strong justification for providing the differentiator. But as Ben said above, Metal Academy is a constantly evolving process of improvement & we feel very strongly about taking our clan member's opinions onboard when looking for direction on these topics so keep the feedback coming.

The traditional doom metal topic is a difficult one for me to find a firm personal stance on to be honest. I think the tag has been poorly used over the years & that's perhaps due to history as much as anything. I mean Witchfinder General's "Death Penalty" album certainly has some doomy riffs on almost every track but, when taken in holistically, it's only really the last couple of songs that could be classed as legitimate doom metal. In fact, "Death Penalty" is clearly just paying homage to Black Sabbath & the godfathers of heavy metal are not considered to be a doom metal band so I'm not surprised that someone going into it looking for doom would be a little disappointed. Saint Vitus' sophomore album "Hallow's Victim" is another one where I question the validity of its doom claim but it seems to be universally held up as a landmark release for the genre. So when you've got seriously important releases like those ones muddying the waters then more modern doom fans looking back in time for inspiration are bound to get confused, particularly when you've got a total doom-fest like Candlemass' "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus" being labelled with the same subgenre tag. Don't ask me what's going on there as that record's about as doom as doom gets.

When it comes down to it, I actually don't think the genuine doom metal tracks on those early releases are different enough to modern doom to warrant a differentiator. If you had a full album of that stuff then I don't think it'd be open to discussion. The influence of 70's blues/psychedelic/hard/prog rock isn't a doom deal breaker when it's incorporated into that framework in my opinion. It's the inclusion of a number of tracks that aren't very doomy at all that starts blurring things (particularly the faster heavy metal driven ones) but that doesn't mean that we have a new subgenre in my opinion. We've just got a band incorporating a few different influences or possibly residing in two genres rather than an entirely different brand of doom metal. One person's proto-doom is another's hard rock if you know what I mean. So overall I think I lean closer to omitting traditional doom metal & using more discretion when using the conventional doom metal tag than I do to including it.

 if we were to go with US power metal as a subgenre of heavy metal then a Japanese band that had the US power metal sound would presumably be excluded from the same subgenre as the US bands. That doesn't make any sense to me. Perhaps if this is a unique sound then a new subgenre label is a better way to go?

I have seen this as an issue as well, I disagree with this mindset but I find it to be a big problem. I have listened to Japanese bands, Euro bands, etc that sound like USPM and I have no trouble giving them the label, but I'd be totally fine with changing the name so it doesn't sound like only US bands can have it. 

Unfortunately I'm no expert on modern USPM either! Which is why I suggested someone from the Guardians clan give their two cents. However, a quick use of the RYM charts pulls plenty of releases from the past two decades (unlike the NWOBH "genre", which is almost exclusively used pre 90's) which shows modern bands are still receiving the label at a steady rate. In fact, almost a third of USPM releases on RYM are post-2000. 

Musically, USPM in my experience employs more double bass, more galloping, tremolo picking and palm muting, and more keys/piano than traditional heavy metal. This usually makes it sound quite a bit heavier and faster than pure HM, and much more rhythmic. Thematically it tends to play on fantasy (including sci-fi), history (including medieval/mythology) , and in general more "intellectual/nerdy" material than heavy metal. It often aims for an epic atmosphere and is more prone to melodramatic, hammy vocal deliveries (or conversely more gruff vocals akin to Thrash) and power ballads. 

In the end it doesn't really matter to me personally whether it's added or not, especially as someone not in the Guardians clan, but I do believe that it is a distinct style.

I don't know as much about epic doom as some of you likely do but I have a few questions:

1. Are there enough bands that champion the epic doom sound to warrant it's own subgenre?

2. Are the unique characteristics of epic doom strong enough to command that it's kept separate from conventional doom metal?

3. Are there epic doom fans that don't like conventional doom & vice versa?

Musically, USPM in my experience employs more double bass, more galloping, tremolo picking and palm muting, and more keys/piano than traditional heavy metal. This usually makes it sound quite a bit heavier and faster than pure HM, and much more rhythmic. Thematically it tends to play on fantasy (including sci-fi), history (including medieval/mythology) , and in general more "intellectual/nerdy" material than heavy metal. It often aims for an epic atmosphere and is more prone to melodramatic, hammy vocal deliveries (or conversely more gruff vocals akin to Thrash) and power ballads. 

See that just sounds like regular power metal to me.

For Trad Doom - take a band like Reverend Bizzare. Despite being modern, they play Trad Doom, because they are specifically going for a homage of 80's Doom trends and adopt that sound. Sample song - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RURHvusfJ7M&list=PLymNFxwBo3tjGwI0JPvjMu6Yl0TwoSL-f&index=1 . Here, even the tone of the guitar mimics the muddy sound of 80's Doom. The riffs are slow but groovy, the vocals are kinda just chilled out, the production is very basic. They do not focus on mood or atmosphere, but rather simple and catchy riffs at a slow tempo, at times sounding a bit negative, but nothing really "sad" or "depressive." subject matter tends to be occult, religious, myth, etc.

Candlemass also has these traits, except rather than chill vocals, they aim for highly intense, almost operatic singing. Epic doom tends to take this sound and just make it "bigger" if that makes sense. Sure Candlemass have some sombre songs, but nothing they've done is really emotionally evocative in comparison to more modern Doom. They don't spend much time creating atmospheres or soundscapes, they just play a classic rock setup with some extra keys and groove. It's just Trad Doom that's more epic.

Contrast that with this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCdoXtp7qsI . The goal of this style of Doom is to create a sad, evocative  atmosphere. The vocals sound pained, the lyrics are introspective and pessimistic. The band is not grooving here, they're not focused on creating super memorable riffs, they're focused on building a soundscape that sounds melancholic and depressive. It sounds vastly different to both Reverend Bizzare and Candlemass. This is what I consider true Doom. Trad Doom was using the slow style Sabbath had and kinda just running with it to further extremes. THIS style of Doom (as well as Death Doom and Funeral Doom) embraced the slow, minimalistic songwriting of 80's Doom but instead of playing it like straightforward rock music, took a more post-rock approach and used it to foster and craft an atmosphere and aesthetic. There's a reason Doom changed so much after the 80's ended - because using it in this way worked really well! Turns out slow, heavy music is pretty much a perfect place to breed sorrow, and thus Doom as we know it is a lot different than Traditional Doom which was just slow heavy metal, and Epic Doom, which was just epic slow heavy metal.

Maybe clan members should decide what subgenres are worth adding to their own clans as they've (presumably) the most knowledge, experience, and passion for those genres.

Great idea, SilentScream!

I'm not by any means an expert on modern US power metal SilentScream213 so I'm very open to learning. Out of interest, what are the unique characteristics of modern US power metal that differentiate it from your garden varieties of heavy metal, power metal or speed metal? Do you have an example you could show us? Even if there are some unique identifying characteristics in modern US power metal, I still have a problem with labelling a subgenre with a location. If we have our genre tags right then they should be linking bands that sound the same together & if we were to go with US power metal as a subgenre of heavy metal then a Japanese band that had the US power metal sound would presumably be excluded from the same subgenre as the US bands. That doesn't make any sense to me. Perhaps if this is a unique sound then a new subgenre label is a better way to go?

I know you directed that question to SilentScream, Daniel, but I know some unique characteristics of US power metal. The scene/subgenre has inspired speed metal, not been inspired by, drawing more influence from traditional heavy metal. Compared to European power metal, it's faster and more energetic with more riffs and less keyboards. It can be considered a more melodic thrash metal with greater guitar leads. And the Americans have started the usage of high operatic vocals that would carry over to the Europeans and even Australians. A couple examples that I enjoy are Sanctuary and the first two Nevermore albums. I guess because of the more epic musical/lyrical themes from bands like Manowar, Cirith Ungol, and Iced Earth that would inspire bands of other Guardians (sub)genres, we can change the name US power metal to... "Epic Metal", like "epic doom metal" without the doom!

I don't know as much about epic doom as some of you likely do but I have a few questions:

1. Are there enough bands that champion the epic doom sound to warrant it's own subgenre?

2. Are the unique characteristics of epic doom strong enough to command that it's kept separate from conventional doom metal?

3. Are there epic doom fans that don't like conventional doom & vice versa?

I don't know a lot about epic doom either, but here's what I think. Sure there are some bands of that subgenre like Candlemass, Doomsword, Solitude Aeturnus, Solstice, and While Heaven Wept, and the classical influences and fantasy lyrics give the genre an "epic" feel. Those characteristics are unique, but they don't change a lot about standard doom metal. Plus, there are other metal genres that have that "epic" feel like all the Guardians genres, and the word "epic" has been done to death when describing genres that already have suitable names, which is a reason why the one subgenre with that feel that could use the name "Epic Metal" is the one with the questionable name, US power metal. And I'm sure most epic doom fans like the standard doom that inspired this "epic" subgenre.

Maybe clan members should decide what subgenres are worth adding to their own clans as they've (presumably) the most knowledge, experience, and passion for those genres.

Great idea, SilentScream!

Quoted shadowdoom9

That's always been the intent guys.

I know you directed that question to SilentScream, Daniel, but I know some unique characteristics of US power metal. The scene/subgenre has inspired speed metal, not been inspired by, drawing more influence from traditional heavy metal. Compared to European power metal, it's faster and more energetic with more riffs and less keyboards. It can be considered a more melodic thrash metal with greater guitar leads. And the Americans have started the usage of high operatic vocals that would carry over to the Europeans and even Australians. A couple examples that I enjoy are Sanctuary and the first two Nevermore albums. I guess because of the more epic musical/lyrical themes from bands like Manowar, Cirith Ungol, and Iced Earth that would inspire bands of other Guardians (sub)genres, we can change the name US power metal to... "Epic Metal", like "epic doom metal" without the doom!

Quoted shadowdoom9

See this is where it gets confusing for me because in my experience a good portion of European power metal utilizes speed metal as its basis (the last few tracks on the monthly The Guardian playlists are often made up of this stuff) & a good portion of US power metal is at more moderate tempos too. Let's take our current The Guardians feature release for example as it was the most highly regarded US power metal release of last year as far as I can tell. It never comes close to speed metal, let alone thrash. It's much more in line with the original intention of the US power metal scene term. It doesn't use operatic vocals either. It is however heavily slanted towards the epic atmospheres (particularly in the vocals, themes & imagery) & would fit comfortably under the "epic metal" tag if it was available. It's definitely closer to heavy metal than it is European power metal but has a couple of tracks that push into power metal territory. Have you heard it? How does it compare with your understanding of US power metal?

I don't know a lot about epic doom either, but here's what I think. Sure there are some bands of that subgenre like Candlemass, Doomsword, Solitude Aeturnus, Solstice, and While Heaven Wept, and the classical influences and fantasy lyrics give the genre an "epic" feel. Those characteristics are unique, but they don't change a lot about standard doom metal. Plus, there are other metal genres that have that "epic" feel like all the Guardians genres, and the word "epic" has been done to death when describing genres that already have suitable names, which is a reason why the one subgenre with that feel that could use the name "Epic Metal" is the one with the questionable name, US power metal. And I'm sure most epic doom fans like the standard doom that inspired this "epic" subgenre.

I agree. I actually don't think there are enough epic doom bands to warrant its own subgenre &, from my limited experience with those bands, I don't think the unique identifiers are enough to warrant it either. It'll be interesting to hear what some of our more well informed members have to say on this topic though.

Also I'm unable to vote for or against melodic metalcore even though it's a Revolution primary genre (possibly later secondary to metalcore). Can you please fix that? Thanks!

This has been fixed. Let me know if you still have any issue.

I knew that the introduction of this feature would create lots of discussion around what subgenre is or isn't a real thing. Rest assured that we're totally open to making changes if the community as a collective wishes it to be so. Daniel and I are actually quite excited by the prospect of running through the whole metal genre tree and analysing it. I'm certain we'll be challenged as much as we'll do the challenging, and we embrace it.

For anyone reading that thinks this is all just too much compartmentalising, feel free to carry on using the site the way you always have. You can basically ignore the subgenres.

I know you directed that question to SilentScream, Daniel, but I know some unique characteristics of US power metal. The scene/subgenre has inspired speed metal, not been inspired by, drawing more influence from traditional heavy metal. Compared to European power metal, it's faster and more energetic with more riffs and less keyboards. It can be considered a more melodic thrash metal with greater guitar leads. And the Americans have started the usage of high operatic vocals that would carry over to the Europeans and even Australians. A couple examples that I enjoy are Sanctuary and the first two Nevermore albums. I guess because of the more epic musical/lyrical themes from bands like Manowar, Cirith Ungol, and Iced Earth that would inspire bands of other Guardians (sub)genres, we can change the name US power metal to... "Epic Metal", like "epic doom metal" without the doom!

Quoted shadowdoom9

See this is where it gets confusing for me because in my experience a good portion of European power metal utilizes speed metal as its basis (the last few tracks on the monthly The Guardian playlists are often made up of this stuff) & a good portion of US power metal is at more moderate tempos too. Let's take our current The Guardians feature release for example as it was the most highly regarded US power metal release of last year as far as I can tell. It never comes close to speed metal, let alone thrash. It's much more in line with the original intention of the US power metal scene term. It doesn't use operatic vocals either. It is however heavily slanted towards the epic atmospheres (particularly in the vocals, themes & imagery) & would fit comfortably under the "epic metal" tag if it was available. It's definitely closer to heavy metal than it is European power metal but has a couple of tracks that push into power metal territory. Have you heard it? How does it compare with your understanding of US power metal?

I haven't heard that album yet, but I shall give it a listen and review to answer your question and settle the US power metal debate.