Future Feature Announcement: Filterable Subgenres

Not satisfied with all the new features that have been added to Metal Academy recently, I'm currently working on something big. As a user of the site, it has always bothered me that I can only filter by top level genre, and not by the plethora of sub-genres that have evolved throughout metal's long history. Yes, I can run a search for all the Doom Metal albums released in whatever time period I want, but I can't see all the Death Doom Metal or Funeral Doom metal albums. How about looking for Melodic Death Metal albums?

This limitation came about due to the site's clan-based functionality. It hasn't been difficult for me to figure out the appropriate clans and top level genres for the thousands (now tens of thousands) of releases I've added so far, but it's just not practical for me to try to figure out precise subgenres for the large percentage of relatively unknown releases. And the idea of having every release's subgenres voted on in the Hall isn't practical either.

So what's the plan?

Well, the current clan/genre system will remain, with me setting the clan(s) and genre(s) for each release at the time that I add them to Metal Academy. As always, the community can request that a release be added to the Hall of Judgement if they feel that the initial clan(s) and/or genre(s) are not correct.

For subgenres,  my plan is to allow Academy attendees to vote for the subgenres of releases attached to their clans. When they visit the release page of an album that's part of one of their clans, they'll have the option to pick which subgenre(s) they believe it belongs to. If my full plan comes to fruition, then you'll only see the subgenres related to the release's current genre(s), which should stop people from adding the ridiculous stuff that you often see at RYM.

EXAMPLE:

If you visit the release page for Edge of Sanity's Crimson album today, you'll be able to see that the album belongs to the The Horde and The Infinite clans and you'll also be able to see that it belongs to the Death Metal and Progressive Metal genres. In future, you'll also be able to see that members of The Horde have voted that the release should have a Melodic Death Metal subgenre. If you belong to The Horde, you'll have the option to put your vote in too, choosing from any of the Death Metal subgenres that you feel are accurate. If you belong to The Infinite, you'll have the opportunity to vote for any of the Progressive Metal subgenres (you could vote for Djent I guess, but you'd be wrong). If you belong to The Horde AND The Infinite, you'll be able to vote for subgenres of both Death Metal AND Progressive Metal.

Why am I telling you all this now? Two reasons:

Firstly, it's going to take me a while to get this up and running, and I may not be adding as many releases to the site as I normally do for a while (I'll prioritise requests, so keep them coming).

Secondly, I'm going to come across some genre questions that need community discussion, starting with the below...

Once the subgenre voting system is in place, all the usual suspects will be available to select. Let's look at the Black Metal subgenres for discussion purposes...

• Atmospheric Black Metal
• Black 'n' Roll
• Depressive Black Metal
• Melodic Black Metal
• Pagan Black Metal
• Symphonic Black Metal
• War Metal

Whether you agree with this list or not, it is fairly comprehensive. However, it doesn't actually contain a subgenre that can be used to state that a particular release is just a typical Black Metal album. Which of the above subgenres can let an uneducated Academy attendee know that if they like Mayhem's De mysteriis dom Sathanas, they may also enjoy Immortal's Pure Holocaust. Now you could say that if a release in the Black Metal genre has no subgenres, it should be considered a standard, typical black metal album, but with zero votes for any subgenres, you wouldn't actually know whether no-one has simply got around to voting at all.

To get around this, I'd like to add a subgenre to each genre that can be used to identify releases as having the typical sound for the relevant genre. I would label them Traditional (for example, Traditional Death Metal), but Traditional Doom Metal kinda ruined that idea by being an actual subgenre. Daniel suggested Classic (for example, Classic Black Metal), and I think that's better than anything else I've come up with so far.

Anyway, what do you guys think of this idea, and if you like it, how does the term Classic sit with you?

I must confess I really like the sound of Classic as a genre term for releases that are pure embodiments of a genre's prime characteristics, it has a certain gravitas to it. Classic Black Metal is a great term that should already be a thing. Maybe this will be the birth of a number of widely accepted new genres of metal! 

On the point of Classic Doom, I have never been a fan of the Traditional Doom Metal tag and tend to ignore it on RYM,  preferring to vote such releases as just plain Doom Metal. So, Ben, do you propose to have both Traditional Doom as a sub-genre and Classic Doom or just one of those because, to my mind, Trad Doom releases would all come under the Classic Doom umbrella.

While I'm on the subject of doom metal sub-genres, would you consider Epic Doom Metal as valid? This isn't recognised by RYM, but I believe there are enough adherents and it is distinguishable sufficiently from other doom metal sub-genres to justify inclusion on MA.

I think I'll refrain from adding new sub-genres until the function is present, but it's definitely something I'm open to. Daniel and I are keen to add a few as well, such as Symphonic Death Metal (we have Symphonic Black Metal in The North, yet symphonic death metal albums end up in The Horde AND The Guardians) and Progressive Death Metal (so many bands are labelled as Technical Death Metal when they are really a mix of death and progressive). We can talk about Technical Thrash Metal too.

I actually think we have an excellent platform to discuss genre requirements properly. When certain genres really don't feel right in the clan structure we have, it's often because they're not great genres to begin with. Atmospheric Sludge Metal is probably the most obvious case. Let's face it, Atmospheric Sludge Metal and Post Metal are pretty interchangeable, and any Atmospheric Sludge Metal album that it feels correct to place in both The Fallen and The Infinite probably has a Sludge Metal genre anyway. Sludge Metal feels right in The Fallen. Post-Metal feels right in The Infinite. A lot of Atmospheric Sludge Metal is just Post-Metal that has an element of Sludge Metal, so let's just use those genres.

All this said, I'm keen to remove any unnecessary subgenres in the short term. I agree that Traditional Doom Metal is completely unnecessary, and I'd add NWOBHM to that discussion too. Genres should not be created based on a scene or a location, nor should they be created based on lyrical content. Genres should (in my opinion) categorise releases based on the music they contain, and nothing more. Should Goregrind be a genre or is it just Grindcore with a gore theme (I don't know, just putting it out there)? Should Enslaved and Borknagar albums be labelled as Viking Metal or are they just Black Metal albums with Viking themes?

I've probably opened a few cans of worms there, but I want to get everyone thinking and sharing those thoughts. There's a lot of metal knowledge and passion in this little community. I reckon we can build something special.

I think the common consensus online has been to label the traditional black metal sound as "raw black metal" but I'm not sure that this is an accurate term for all releases that would fall into that category. "Old school death metal" also has its issues as it hints that the release is actually old. The  "classic" prefix isn't perfect either mind you as it indicates that the release is just that i.e. a classic. I don't think we're gonna find a perfect solution there so we'll just need to go with the consensus. My vote goes for "classic".

I've got a few other suggestions over the RYM subgenre list too:

I'd like to see these subgenres included as they're clearly required: progressive death metal, progressive thrash metal, blackened thrash, symphonic death metal, perhaps even blackened death metal & death/thrash?

I think the "traditional doom metal" genre tag is a definite thing. It's just that the use of it is so inconsistent that it makes it hard for people to understand (see Candlemass' first couple of records which are pure doom metal but seem to draw the traditional tag almost unanimously or the fact that most traditional doom bands sound exactly like Black Sabbath yet Sabbath is somehow exempt from the tag. Essentially I see traditional doom metal as a form of doom metal that is diluted by other subgenres like heavy metal, hard rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock, progressive rock, etc. but still has the essence of the doom atmosphere. But is it different from your pure doom metal model to command its own subgenre? I don't think so to be honest. I'd be happy for us to make a call on this as a group.

I'd like to see the "atmospheric sludge metal" subgenre abandoned as it's essentially the same thing as post-metal.

Do we include NWOBHM as a subgenre? It will mean that releases from that movement have the potential to not come up in heavy metal searches &, despite the fact that the New Wave definitely has its own unique attributes & characteristics, it also covers such a diverse range of sounds from speed metal to traditional doom metal. I'd suggest omitting it.

I love it! With that new upcoming feature, it'll be easier for Metal Academy members to find specific subgenres they like in genres they would otherwise generally avoid, like if I wanna find releases with subgenres such as Death-Doom, Melodic Death Metal, etc. To be honest, I think of the term "Classic" more in terms of time, rather than genre, like the "classic" albums would be for releases that are in the earliest origin eras of their respective genres to which they helped popularize said genres. Y'know, their "Early Days", "1st Decade/Era", like in Clan Challenges (for example; https://metal.academy/lists/single/22, https://metal.academy/lists/single/28, https://metal.academy/lists/single/35, https://metal.academy/lists/single/41). And of course, the "Traditional" label was taken by Traditional Doom Metal. So the term I would prefer is..."Standard", as in "Standard Death Metal", "Standard Doom Metal", "Standard Black Metal", etc.

While I'm on the subject of doom metal sub-genres, would you consider Epic Doom Metal as valid? This isn't recognised by RYM, but I believe there are enough adherents and it is distinguishable sufficiently from other doom metal sub-genres to justify inclusion on MA.

Epic Doom Metal really is an actual doom metal subgenre. I'm guessing RYM didn't feel like using that subgenre because of the overuse of the term "Epic" to describe other genres for some bands in websites such as the Metal Archives (for example; "Bal-Sagoth = Symphonic/Epic Black Metal", "Battlelore = Epic Symphonic Metal", "Dethlehem = Epic Melodic Death Metal", "Ensiferum = Epic Folk Metal", "Manilla Road = Epic Heavy/Power Metal"). Yeah, overly adding the word "Epic" to genres for bands that are already epic enough can make that word a little less...epic. But if we are gonna add genre terms that are different from RYM such as "Standard", then why not? I'm fine with Epic Doom Metal being a valid genre here!

It's going to take me a while to get this up and running, and I may not be adding as many releases to the site as I normally do for a while (I'll prioritise requests, so keep them coming).

You'll still add requested releases, Ben? Sweet!! I made a couple band/album requests the other day (Prayer for Cleansing and the new Kamelot live album I Am the Empire – Live from the 013), but I still haven't seen them here yet so I'm not too sure if you saw my requests or not. Could you please add them as soon as you can? Thanks! Can't wait to see them here, along with the exciting upcoming Filterable Subgenres feature...

Genres should not be created based on a scene or a location, nor should they be created based on lyrical content. Genres should (in my opinion) categorise releases based on the music they contain, and nothing more. Should Goregrind be a genre or is it just Grindcore with a gore theme (I don't know, just putting it out there)? Should Enslaved and Borknagar albums be labelled as Viking Metal or are they just Black Metal albums with Viking themes?

There are definitely a couple Grindcore subgenres; Goregrind and Pornogrind, but I personally don't think those genre labels should be added here. They openly point out the lyrical content that is so gory and X-rated, and if people checking out the site who are sensitive to that kind of inappropriate sh*t see those labels, they would probably be outraged and prevent themselves and their kids from going here, and we would have much less new members in the future. Remember, I'm still living with my sometimes suspicious parents. Viking Metal is often a mix of Black Metal instrumentation with Viking themes, so some Enslaved and Borknagar albums can count as Viking Metal, I guess? But I agree that just because a band has Viking themes, doesn't mean they can be labeled Viking Metal. Death metal bands can have Viking themes, such as Amon Amarth and Unleashed, but since those are probably the only two prominent bands with that combination, "Viking Death Metal" wouldn't cut it as a subgenre.

Do we include NWOBHM as a subgenre? It will mean that releases from that movement have the potential to not come up in heavy metal searches &, despite the fact that the New Wave definitely has its own unique attributes & characteristics, it also covers such a diverse range of sounds from speed metal to traditional doom metal. I'd suggest omitting it.

Agreed, Daniel. NWOBHM is more a wave than a genre. Enough said...

I too, vote "classic". Classic is one of those words in the English language that has more than one meaning and doesn't exclusively indicate time at all - a bottle of classic coke isn't 100 years old is it - it means it's formulated to a classic recipe and I would say the same is true of a metal release that follows the same formula as the genre's "classic" releases.

I've never been too comfortable with the NWOBHM tag either - it was a scene and isn't a genre, it's like having a "Bay area thrash" genre. In fact, a number of bands from the NWOBHM would struggle to make a case for being metal bands at all, eg Demon. Agree on atmo-sludge too.

A genre I tried to get approved on RYM (unsuccessfully) was Blackened Doom and I would like to suggest it again here. What about the metal genres that incorporate psychedelic elements, such as psych-doom and psychedelic black metal (eg Oranssi Pazuzu)?

Psychedelic black metal can be another valid metal genre. However, I don't know about "psych-doom", that can refer to either adding psychedelic fragments to gothic/doom metal (Tiamat's Wildhoney) or a nickname for stoner metal.

Psychedelic Doom and Stoner Metal are two very different things Andi. Psych-doom incorporates elements of psychedelic rock and Heavy Psych into a doom metal sound using elements such as Hammond keyboards, flute etc. (early Blood Ceremony). Stoner Metal is based in stoner rock, but with a heavier "metal" edge, whilst maintaining the stoner rock "groove" (Ogre, Cathedral). Stoner doom takes the stoner ethos and combines it with heavy doom sounds to present an even heavier, oppressive, "stoned" atmosphere (Sleep, Electric Wizard).

I generally find that the psychedelic doom releases are tagged as stoner metal although I've never agreed with it personally. My concept of stoner metal is a lot more groovy than doom metal & I don't find it to be half as appealing.

I don't know enough about dissonant death metal to comment, but how about dissonant black metal as is very big within the Icelandic black metal community?

I would say no it's not Andi. I don't think there's much correlation between the style I'm referring to & the likes of Atheist, Death or Opeth. Gorguts came up with a completely new sound with "Obscura" & that style has been championed by a number of acts since. Dissonant death metal is just as likely to repel progressive & tech death fans as it is to appeal to them so i feel it warrants it's own subgenre.  Meshuggah & The Ocean don't base their entire sound around dissonance in the same way. Not by a long shot.

Sonny, I agree that dissonant black metal is a thing too. Particularly in the wake of Deathspell Omega.

By the way Ben, goregrind is definitely a different beast to traditional grindcore. It has its own attributes & deserves its own category in my opinion.

I like the "classic" label as well, good call there.

As far as "Trad Doom" - I'm going to debate Daniel here (though purely on opinion) and say Candlemass - as well as most "epic" Doom bands - are definitely included when I think of Trad Doom. I think most Doom developed in the 80's, which was either Sabbath worship or slow fantasy-style metal, is Trad Doom, and all bands henceforth that imitate this style are also Trad Doom. Doom bands in the 80's, Candlemass included, made almost no use of atmosphere,  or in general techniques or instruments not commonly found in Metal. Though they were often sombre and lethargic, mood was not a focus, and groovy riffs were usually the forefront. They didn't embody what we NOW associate with Doom Metal.

In the 90's, when gothic stuff started getting interwoven, Doom became a much different beast, even aside from the Death Doom and Funeral Doom. 90's Doom is when the genre started putting heavy emphasis on atmosphere, lyricism that was emotionally evocative, high emphasis on melody, and incorporating techniques, instruments, and styles not normally found in metal. The music was much darker, and more likely to feature a mixture of cleans and growls or female vocals. Despite being invented later, this is the style I think of as plain "Doom Metal," as it has let go of all Sabbath worship and become something much different than everything that was done in the 80's (Though I do believe Trouble was the closest to this style on "The Skull" and "Run to the Light").

IF epic doom was it's own genre, then I agree Candlemass and similar bands would fit there. However without such, I think Epic Doom is much closer to Trad Doom than true Doom.

How about depressive power metal or blackened funk metal?

Despite having forwarded a case for a couple of sub-genres, I would like to play devil's advocate. As we try to force art in general and music specifically into smaller and smaller boxes, do we run the risk of losing sight of what makes it so great to begin with? As the number of micro-genres increases people seem to get more and more fraught about which exact tiny box a specific release should be assigned to. Witness the petty and essentially meaningless sniping in the comment boxes on RYM's genre voting pages for proof. Genre voting seems not to allow fans to just be fans, they must also be analytical machines who can't be allowed to just enjoy an album, but have to have a sweeping and thorough knowledge of all genres thus allowing them to measure any specific release against rigidly defined parameters in order to come to an informed decision about which pigeonhole to place it in. Failure to do so correctly may then result in derision and insult.

I must admit that I like the fact that Metal Academy isn't too specific in it's genre selection. Do we really need to break a main genre like Doom, Death or Black metal into anything more than a handful of easily differentiated sub-genres? Surely any more specific genre indicators are better as part of a review.

Just thought that I'd posit a differing viewpoint and see what others think.

How about depressive power metal or blackened funk metal?

If you wanna hear some power metal with depressive themes, I would suggest the earlier Sonata Arctica and the recent Kamelot. Not sure about “blackened funk metal”, but that would be an interesting as f*** mix.

I must admit that I like the fact that Metal Academy isn't too specific in it's genre selection. Do we really need to break a main genre like Doom, Death or Black metal into anything more than a handful of easily differentiated sub-genres? Surely any more specific genre indicators are better as part of a review.

Breaking down a main genre like Doom, Death or Black metal is a bit necessary because then it’s easier for people to listen to sub-genres they like from a main genre they generally avoid, like how I listen to death-doom and melodeath while avoiding the standard doom or death metal. But if you don’t feel up for the whole genre-splitting idea, that’s fine. I’m just pointing out my opinion...

I think it's good to have the sub-genres available for those who want it, and if they don't interest you, you don't have to participate in voting for them. I know what you mean about the sniping in the comment boxes, that is pretty toxic. I like to believe that since Metal Academy is a much smaller and metal-oriented community, that sort of petty disagreement might be far less common, but I could be wrong.

Surely any more specific genre indicators are better as part of a review.

I think this is the most important aspect personally, having less sub-genres at the entry point allows for wider discussion topics on how certain elements are used in that base Metal genre, rather than instantly pinpointing what it's generally considered as. I'd rather be part of a community that spends its time actually discussing the music as part of the album/song experience and not what it's "objectively" labelled as. 

I think the Academy should focus more on the distinction of sub-genres that exist in multiple Clans just to avoid confusion moving forward, though. Ben's example of Symphonic Death and Sonny's example of Blackened Doom are perfect since they, by definition of the current Clan system, will always be a hybrid of two clans no matter how the band performs it. Whether that's a good or a bad thing, I'm not sure to be honest.

I've got one for people more qualified than I to debate. Do we really need to differentiate Celtic metal & Medieval folk metal from your traditional folk metal variety? Are they really that different that they need their own subgenres? Are there people that only like one or the other?

At the same time is it necessary? If someone asks me what Eluveitie sounds like, I'd say a softer Melodic Death Metal with a lot of Folk influences. Sure they really lean into Celtic/Scottish folk themes, but is that really something that needs to be distinguished up front? I find it to be similar to Ben's point regarding NWOBHM, Folk music is going to sound different depending on where it's from, but at the end of the day it's still Folk. It's just that Folk in general has such a long history that there are many, many ideas of what can be explored, but since those Folk elements, no matter where they're from, take a backseat to the Metal aspects of most albums, I don't think the distinction is necessary. 

Also, according to RYM, there have been 5 Medieval Folk Metal albums released in 2020, 3 of them being In Extremo, and Celtic Metal having 4 released in 2020, 3 of them being a band called Saurom. It's just not necessary.