New Feature - Subgenres

Also I'm unable to vote for or against melodic metalcore even though it's a Revolution primary genre (possibly later secondary to metalcore). Can you please fix that? Thanks!

This has been fixed. Let me know if you still have any issue.

Thanks Ben! It's all good.

Ben / Daniel, if you want to differentiate The Academy from other metal sites, I would like to see gothic doom given it's own genre. Daniel says "The question we often ask ourselves when discussing these topics is "are there metalheads that like this subgenre but not it's primary genre & vice versa?"' I think it is obvious from my comments as a huge fan of doom metal that I am not a lover of gothic metal and it is equally obvious that for someone like Andi the opposite is true. So, by your own measure I would suggest this is a valid suggestion. Would someone who likes the aforementioned gothic-influenced death doom bands necessarily be into conventional death doom like Autopsy, Winter, Sempiternal Deathreign etc? Personally I think not. For me this is far more obviously an issue than the doom/trad doom/epic doom debate (although I am beginning to change my stance on the whole doom/trad doom debate somewhat).

As for NWOBHM, this is absolutely a scene and not a genre. Out of interest, how does Metal Academy view NWOBHM bands that are obviously not metal - Demon spring to mind - would you allow them or not because RYM classes them under a metal sub-genre?

For me, the important thing with sub-genres is to have them utilised correctly - this is something RYM is notoriously bad at and I'm not sure genre voting is the way to address this situation. You may as well not have sub-genres if they are going to be incorrect or misleading.

I would also like to see blackened doom as a sub-genre - rym have allowed all sorts of "blackened" genres but stubbornly refuse to allow blackened doom, which absolutely is a valid genre and is differentiated from both black metal and doom metal in the same way as (true) death doom is from death and doom metal.

It's great to see atmospheric black metal included - this is so obviously a different beast to straight-up black metal that it should almost be a primary.

Now that I've listened to that Eternal Champion album, I can hear quite a difference. To quote from my review summary: This album is slightly better than probably the only other 2020 Guardians album I've listened to, Nightwish's Human Nature, in every aspect, including the sound, riffs, vocals, and confidence. Sadly, no symphonic orchestra, but thankfully, no orchestra-only tracks! Vocalist Jason Tarpey really lets loose a lot of vocal diversity, which is a boost of benefit for the band and other Guardians bands. His lyrics and concept could build worlds at strong points, such as bad-a** verses in a few songs. Those songs bring forward great influences from bands like Manilla Road and Sanctuary, all in passion and love to continue US power metal reign all over Earth. Basically, this is Sanctuary-like US power metal with fantasy lyrics you might find in Manowar and European power metal bands like DragonForce and Rhapsody of Fire, all formed into US power metal's ideal new name, "Epic Metal"!

So what makes this release US power metal when it doesn't fit your previously mentioned criteria Andi? Are you saying that all US power metal is epic & that's the common link for these bands? Do you think that's a strong enough characteristic to command its own subgenre over?

Would someone who likes the aforementioned gothic-influenced death doom bands necessarily be into conventional death doom like Autopsy, Winter, Sempiternal Deathreign etc? Personally I think not. For me this is far more obviously an issue than the doom/trad doom/epic doom debate (although I am beginning to change my stance on the whole doom/trad doom debate somewhat).

As for NWOBHM, this is absolutely a scene and not a genre. Out of interest, how does Metal Academy view NWOBHM bands that are obviously not metal - Demon spring to mind - would you allow them or not because RYM classes them under a metal sub-genre?

You are absolutely right on those two points, Sonny. I haven't listened to the conventional death-doom bands you mentioned but they're probably closer to death than doom, as opposed to the death-doom bands I listen that are closer to gothic and doom like My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost, and Officium Triste. I agree that NWOBHM is just a scene. But it falls into the heavy metal category, so I think bands with only the NWOBHM label can be accepted as "Heavy Metal".

Now that I've listened to that Eternal Champion album, I can hear quite a difference. To quote from my review summary: This album is slightly better than probably the only other 2020 Guardians album I've listened to, Nightwish's Human Nature, in every aspect, including the sound, riffs, vocals, and confidence. Sadly, no symphonic orchestra, but thankfully, no orchestra-only tracks! Vocalist Jason Tarpey really lets loose a lot of vocal diversity, which is a boost of benefit for the band and other Guardians bands. His lyrics and concept could build worlds at strong points, such as bad-a** verses in a few songs. Those songs bring forward great influences from bands like Manilla Road and Sanctuary, all in passion and love to continue US power metal reign all over Earth. Basically, this is Sanctuary-like US power metal with fantasy lyrics you might find in Manowar and European power metal bands like DragonForce and Rhapsody of Fire, all formed into US power metal's ideal new name, "Epic Metal"!

So what makes this release US power metal when it doesn't fit your previously mentioned criteria Andi? Are you saying that all US power metal is epic & that's the common link for these bands? Do you think that's a strong enough characteristic to command its own subgenre over?

I just shared an Edguy track in The Guardians Track of the Day thread, and that shows an example of how much European power metal is inspired by US power metal, expanding the speed and epic feel to a new level. That kinda proves that European power metal wouldn't be what it is today without its American counterpart, so there is a link between those scenes/subgenres. This doesn't really help strengthen the "epic" characteristic, but it does help any kind of power metal fan appreciate their favorite genre's origins.

I know everyone is excited to talk about the subgenres themselves (by all means, go ahead), but I was kinda hoping to get some feedback on the functionality we've introduced. Is it exciting to you? Can you see any flaws? Do you like the fact that people can only submit and vote on subgenres that belong to their clans?

Once I'm satisfied that the subgenre functionality is working, then I can start adding filters for it across the site (which is what I'm most looking forward to).

Not a fan of this.  The very concept of everything needing to fit into neat little boxes drives me up the wall if I am honest.  Obviously a passionate subject for some and each to their own but this won't make my Metal Academy experience any different I sense.

As for NWOBHM, this is absolutely a scene and not a genre. Out of interest, how does Metal Academy view NWOBHM bands that are obviously not metal - Demon spring to mind - would you allow them or not because RYM classes them under a metal sub-genre?

We've really only used the RYM tagging as a way to get everything into the database with a reasonable (if not entirely accurate) tag so that each release at least resides in the right clan in 99% of occasions. For those releases that are attached to the NWOBHM scene without actually being legitimate metal releases, I'd suggest that we'll likely keep them on the site as they're still relevant to some metalheads & have an attachment to the scene but they can be changed to the "Non-metal" primary genre so they don't appear in the charts for The Guardians. That would include bands like Saracen, Def Leppard, Demon, Girlschool, Rock Goddess, Praying Mantis, Shiva, White Spirit, Vardis, Dark Star, More, Heavy Pettin, Marseille, Money, A-II-Z, Ethel The Frog, Speed Limit, etc.

I've got to agree with Vinny. I'm not really that bothered. The endless subdivision of art into smaller and smaller categories frustrates me to be honest. Personally I think the major genres should be sufficient. I know the whole "if you like band X and band Y are classed in the same sub-genre you may like them too" argument for music discovery, but I prefer it the old-school way - find out yourself by listening to more music or talk to other fans.  

More subgenres =  more lists. This can only be a good thing in my opinion as lists sit amongst the world's crowning achievements as far as I'm concerned. Besides, there's an absolute requirement to have a subgenre like melodic death metal differentiated from slam death metal as there's a very clear separation in their audiences. If we're serious about the site being the best place on the internet to discover metal music that's in line with each individuals unique personal tastes (which we undeniably are) then it really is a must-have feature,  particularly as we've had a number of people suggest that they felt this was a gap for us compared to the competition & drift away from the site.

The additional subgenrification also helps me to keep the monthly Spotify playlists fairly varied & opens up some of the more passionate & interesting discussion on the forums so I can't see that the new feature is anything but positive.