Rexorcist's Forum Replies

True but they aren't a very diverse band and their hot albums steer way too close to groove.  I think we're debating different definitions of heavy metal by accident.

Well, I'm careful about debating speed metal as it is a loose term on RYM and can vary depending on the online community.  But I'd attach it to Seventh Son and Black Hand Inn at any time.  Running Wild goes hand-in-hand with Metallica for how brutal their music can be.  Around the internet these guys are tagged as heavy metal.  Metal storm doesn't even consider them power metal.  But Metallica attracts metal fans of various types, and that's why the albums are so special.  We can't deny that the general heaviness of both albums compositions lower and in side A.  Yes, the guitars are heavy, but the band isn't always "thrashing.". On top of that, the bands I tagged are many of the most popular bands in the thrash scene.  I'd even include Annihilator, Pantera and maybe Artillery.  Obviously I'm not counting early Pantera.

While I do disagree, I'm in the camp that considers Metal Church thrash so of course I would, I would like to point out that if Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets are thrash/heavy records, then quite a lot of thrash records should be in thrash/heavy too.

I think it really depends on how diverse the band gets.  Albums like the first four Megadeths are too focused on thrashing front to back for that to happen, and by Countdown the thrash had been largely forsaken.  The same about thrashing front-to-back is especially true for Slayer, who rarely steered into new territory longterm until they made a straight-up punk album with Divine Intervention.  Off the top of my head, bands whose classics are excluded from this combo include Megadeth up to Rust, Slayer, Vektor, Coroner, Kreator, Sepultura, Voivod and Celtic Frost.  Metal Church is a good example of the combo (depending on who you ask), T0urniquet is definitely both and Overkill is a maybe.  And because US power metal is a direct heavy metal subgenre you could also include Iced Earth by technicality.  I'm almost done with Peace Sells, and from front to back the first thing on its mind is thrashing.  It doesn't really exercise diversity until its cover of "I Ain't Superstitious."  I guess in comparison to most thrash bands, there are only a few bands who bridge the gap.

I might give you Seventh Star, but I've never heard anyone say those other two aren't heavy metal.  Plus, those albums sounded like the were more worried about modernizing than anything.  They were still heavier than another influential metal album at the time (and you can't convince me this isn't metal), Deep Purple in Rock.  It also bridged the fine line between hard rock and heavy metal, but displayed a level of heaviness that most early bands had difficulty reaching, and had already included the more melodic nature that would be seen in ballads and symphonic metal songs of the 90's and onward.

Not necessarily.  The point of rock and metal is to overcome limits and try new things.  Sabbath didn't use new tech, they just toned down the guitars, which anyone could've done.

Yeah, that's pretty fuckin' punk.

So are you saying it's impossible for a metal song to sound like a rock song?  Theoretically?

You sure?  It was a good conversation.  And from what I can tell, neither of us are on edge and the discussion's getting strong points from both parties.

Personally, I don't consider early Judas to be very heavy at all.  But if Sad Wings of Destiny counts as a metal album, so does Rainbow.  There were too many moments on that album that just don't really match up, and much of the album walks the fine line between hard rock and heavy metal just as Rainbow's Rising did, and part of this is because Halford's voice still needed some maturing.  At that point, Plant and Gillan had more metal voices.  Halford just had the scream (listening to the album now).  Of course, I could say the same thing about most Judas Priest until Painkiller.  It even gets to the point where I don't really consider Sad Wings a metal album (albeit JUST BARELY under the minimum requirement for the time).  Even Machine Head could get heavier and I don't consider that metal, either.

80's hard rock / heavy metal, however, reached an entirely new standard to the point where "Welcome to the Jungle" and "Live Wire" are considered non-metal by metalheads everywhere (although I theorize some of them just want to diss glam and GNR).  Take Powerslave for example.  That was a truly metallic sound, and they could get just as heavy as the songs on those Metallica albums that I singled out.  That right there is the clear factor.  We're essentially covering the level of heaviness increasing between the releases on "Deep Purple in Rock" and "Powerslave."  This was a standard I was taught by a few users on RYM due to heaviness itself having been criticized.  Both the Zeppelin and Sabbath debuts originally got mixed reviews because people weren't used to the heaviness.  The scene was small, yes, but there was one.  The first usage of the term can be traced to '71, and since then there were people seeing how far they could push the envelop until finally we had people blasting music as loud and noisy as possible in Norway.

Aren't wolverines essential small bears?

No, they are a particularly vicious relative of the polecats or weasels.

From wikipaedia:

"The wolverine has a reputation for ferocity and strength out of proportion to its size, with the documented ability to kill prey many times larger than itself."

 If that's not a "metal" animal, then I don't know what is!

I never said it wasn't METAL.  I just don't know if it's PUNK.  When I think of punk, I think of hyperactivity and obnoxiousness, as well as rebellion and... revolution.  Wolverines are one of my favorite animals because of their raw fucking power, and I'd love a wolverine to represent something here, but I don't know if The Revolution is the right place.  Of course, I'm not a member of the Revolution and I've never taken part in their discussions the way I have Guardians.  And I know it's technically a relative of weasels; the point I was making was that it's still pretty similar to a bear in shape, structure and strength.

Doesn't a "wave" of something typically determine the common tropes and differences between other waves?  Like the difference between first and third wave ska?  Or the alternative-rock includion differentiating 80's power pop and 90's power pop?  Fans of the later organize that genre by waves; I've seen it in discussion on RYM.  Heaviness itself was an ongoing journey for more than 15 years until black metal pretty much nailed it.  That growth needs to be addressed.  Before Sabbath, no one even used the term "metal."  The term was coined in 1971, and since then bands either tried to match Sabbath or beat them.  In the 80's it was a gradual journey from NWOBHM to thrash to death to black.  Nowadays we have to rely on technology to make things sound heavier than they really are, usually boiling down to production techniques, such as the heaviness displayed on the albums Hell II and Hell III.  Production plays a big roll in those albums.  Basically, the metal scene had to evolve more than most genres did overtime, because it's not dying anytime soon.

What I'm saying is those other albums spend more time doing actual thrashing with lots of energy where Metallica spends more time with build-up, melody and slowing down some, especially in MoP's case since it's a bit longer than RtL or Rust in Peace.

And keep in mind that Rising was released in a time when metal itself was closer to hard rock.  We're talking about a ten-year difference during the early development of metal, so the exact standard gets technical.

Aren't wolverines essential small bears?

I'm not entirely sure that we can make that claim.  Off the top of my head, Arise, the first five Slayers, Beneath the Remains and Rust in Peace barely have any straight-up heavy metal.  Take an album from this collection and it's 90-100% thrashing.

The heaviness of Metallica's tamer songs and ballads mostly comes from the guitar tone, the production and Ulrich, but it's by far not just thrash.

I like the idea of using aliens and angels for a magical creature theme.  Alien would be the best choice for The Sphere in that instance, but I understand how hard it is to think of an animal for a genre who's leading concept and image revolves around machinery.

Fallen: Mammoth seems to be the most interesting idea to Fallen members.

Gateway: The only entry was a rabbit, and that was more of a personal spirit animal thing.

Guardians: Eagle it is.

Horde: Mixed bag so far, but I'm still really leaning on Rat.

Infinite: So far we've had a couple of sci-fi ideas and a monkey.  So nothing concrete.

North: Wolf or raven.

Pit: Snake or shark.  Snake pit, anyone?

Revolution: just a spirit animal thing for bear, so nothing concrete.  But bear doesn't really say "punk" to me.

Sphere: Nothing concrete, despite the sci-fi ideas.

Lemma rephrase that last post: "I figured that would be the case."  Well, I've got more free time with music now that I'm not busting my ass off with that metalforum top 100.  I'll be able to get to a couple of the albums in the hall.

Here's some food for thought.  If the Sphere needs something mechanical, why not an insect?  For the yellow, the first thing I thought of was a hornet.  But who should get a raven?

Wait, that was only hall 39!?  Had to do a little spy-work, but is Metal Academy only three years old?

On that subject, is there a way to keep the same Hall from being duplicated?

Voted.  Easy no.  Metal wasn't quite as heavy back then, and even by today's standards, reaching Sabbath heaviness is considered hard.  I always treated that as early metal.

Maybe, but I'm posting five albums per post on Metalforum and I don't know when it will be completed.  Since it's a more active forum, I want to see what they say about each five before posting the next five.  AND... if anyone here also has an account on Metalforum, I ain't posting spoilers.  Besides, if Movieforums does it and they have a blast, think of it as a way to potentially increase site activity.  I might even get some people from Movieforums here.

I've got a little more free time for that now that I'm done with my top 100.  I'll be checking out more bands in the judgment hall, assuming I can vote on those albums.

Sweet.  I'm really hoping the conversation around here gets lively enough because of it.  I've got a lot to say about my top 100.  I should be able to post it either tomorrow or the day after.

On this subject, I'm working on a top 100 metal albums list, but I want to provide commentary for each entry.  Is there a special place where I can create a separate thread and post a few at a time until it's done over the course of a few days so people have albums to talk about for each post?  Or is the general chat section good?  I plan on doing this the same way people on Movieforums post their top 100 movie lists, and I'm doing it this way on Metalforum too.

Today IS the Sabbath.  Good day to give it another spin if I can fit it in.

Me, I'm intentionally posting on this forum more than I should because I do want this place to be more active.  Though I think I should check some metal pages on social media to try and get a better response.  And a couple potential RYMers could bring this place up casually on their forums.

Alright I'm wrong - Hell III is heavier.

OK, new contender - Hell II.  Heavier and slower than Dopesmoker, but just as diverse and metallic as Burnt Offerings.

I'll be honest.  Thos is more of an icebreakerthread so I can see what the people here consider heavy through album examples.  There aren't many people here, andco versation is rpetty minimal, especially since most of the conversations go on while I'm asleep.

Obviously don't list "Heroes of Mighty Magic" by Twilight Force.  That so-called "metal" is lighter than 70's metal.

Good list, Rexorcist! I actually made my own list of clan challenges a long while back for the metal subgenres that don't have them, which I can send to you soon via PMs.

Sweet.

If anyone's interested, I just spend the last half-hour compiling a viking metal list challenge.  I made sure I was thorough and didn't include anything crazy obscure.  Minimum ratings amount on RYM was 100 for this list, and as far as I've checked, none of these albums appear on any current list challenges.  I understand that viking metal is a bit of a niche genre, but it was fun to put together.

VIKING METAL LIST:
1. Bathory – Hammerheart (arguably the most famous viking metal album)
2. Moonsorrow – Kivenkantaja (one of the most notable Moonsorrow releases)
3. Enslaved – Frost (Enslaved were a key figure in this scene)
4. Falkenbach - Ok nefka tysvar ty (one of the most active viking bands)
5. Ensiferum – Iron (how can you do this without Ensiferum?)
6. Tyr – By the Light of the Northern Star (Tyr are a very diverse band with a few viking metal albums)
7. Vintersorg – Till fjälls
8. Thyrfing – Vansinnesvisor
9. Einherjer – Blot
10. Graveland – Immortal Pride (may or may not keep for being tagged as an NSBM band)
11. Månegarm – Dödsfärd (the first of the viking era of Manegarm)
12. Borknagar – Borknagar
13. Mithotyn – King of the Distant Forest
14. Finsterforst – Weltenkraft
15. Ereb Altor – By Honour
16. Helheim – Heiðindómr ok mótgang
17. Heidevolk – De Strijdlust Is Geboren
18. Skálmöld – Skálmöld
19. Svartsot – Ravnenes Saga
20. Galar – De gjenlevende
21. Heathen Foray – The Passage
22. Menhir – Thuringia
23. King of Asgard – Fi'mbulvintr
24. Folkearth – By the Sword of My Father
25. Dark Forest – Land of the Evening Star

Megadeth - Rust in Peace

I think the only problem with stenchcore is that there isn't enough of it to form a proper list challenge without duplicating bands.  But other than that, it seems like it's definitely a Pit genre.

I don't know very many people who put Dragonforce in their big four, but I do admit that Inhuman Rampage is an underrated album.  Most power metal fanatics tend to see it as a change of pace from the more melodic sound just so they can say they're the fastest metal band on Earth.  Personally, I think there's still plenty of melody in that album.

Crap.  I meant to say Infinite, but I spend a lot of time doing guardians stuff. :P.  That and I was doing three things at once.  Fixing that now.

Also, good idea, but I think we should start from Aenima upward.  That and Lateralus are the bigger ones.

Honestly, I found Kold to be less diverse than Svartir Sandar or Otta.  I think what it was that killed the diversity was how much more straightforward of a metal album this was in comparison.

After listening to a couple of Solstafir demos, I'm gonna play this.

I just finished La masquerade infernale, and I'm gonna continue on with Arcturus from that point onward.  Up until now the only Arcturus album I had heard was the debut, and I hadn't gotten around to the rest because at the time I was diving into more black metal.  But right now I'm in a shifting mood between post, black and avant-garde.  Probably gonna check out more Thy Catafalque later.

I figured the answer would be something along those lines.

Out of curiosity, what's MA's stance on trancecore?

Solstafir - Kold

I've been listening to a lot of the slower, atmospheric kinds of metal recently, and I just got out of a short Esoteric marathon.  I'm already familiar with a few Solstafir albums and I've always considered them kind of genius.  Truth be told, this album seems less like atmospheric metal and more like straightforward metal, so I'm not into this the same way I was into Otta and Svartir Sandar, but this is still a very moody and surprising album.

It's been a while since I've heard Falconer, but they are definitely responsible for the some of best power metal that Sweden has to offer.  I favor Among Beggars and Thieves and Black Moon Rising for how varied they can get.  But on that subject, I'll always be at least a little pissed that Lost Horizon only had two albums.

I'm gonna take a little bit of time away from updating my top 100 metal albums to explore Amebix.  But I need to conserve time if I'm gonna get it done quickly.  I've got a lot of long albums I plan on listening to this week and I'm not sure what I'll have to do to update my chart next.  The users on another metal site are getting anxious to see my top 100.

Still, I'm gonna be a part of this discussion as much as I can.  If stench is going to the Pit, I'll be happy that one of my clans will represent a punk genre other than crossover thrash.  I just heard three Amebix ep's and I just started Arise.

Since there aren't many posters, I'll tell you what I had in mind for the Horde: rats.  They brought the black plague, and a group of rats IS called a horde.

Plus, rats are fucking rad.

Listening to Images and Words.  Am I the only one who notices how it occasionally sounds like 80's pop music?  I mean, Another Day has a sax solo that sounds exactly like Kenny G, and Take the Time's first verse has a funky bass solo and the 80's synths you'd get in all those later disco albums or even Prince songs.  And let's be honest, the guitar tones of Surrounded belong in an AOR song.

Haha, I've heard of RuneScape but not played it. In fact, I tend to stay away from MMORPGs due to my obsessive personality (I prefer to devote my obsessive tendencies to Metal Academy). I think the clan and clan symbols we've created could be applied to lots of games, including Warhammer. Undead would be The North. Demons The Horde. Robots The Sphere. etc. Although you could argue that the Elves and the Undead should both belong to The North.

Actually, I've not told anyone this yet, but I based a lot of my design for this site on the Magic the Gathering card game. I started by trying to attach metal genres to the five colors of magic (below), but soon realised that it was impossible to snugly fit them into five clumps. I even dabbled with the idea of having clans and sub-clans, but that quickly became too complicated. You have no idea how long it took Daniel and I to agree on the clans the way they are. I'm pretty happy with them, particularly as no-one has questioned our decisions. The only thing that bothers me is that The Gateway, The Sphere and The Revolution are extremely difficult to attract new members for. There are a few obvious reasons for that, but I don't think the site would have worked if we just started throwing the likes of Metalcore, Industrial Metal and Alternative Metal into other clans. Hopefully we find some passionate fans of those styles of music.

I thought about the idea of assigning magic elements to the clans last night.  I'm kinda of a graphic design nerd myself, and much of that was influenced by the Pokemon type symbols in the card game.

The Fallen: Darkness

The Gateway: Water (mostly thinking along the color)

The Guardians: Light

The Horde: Earth

The Infinite: Space

The North: Forest

The Pit: Fire

The Revolution: Wind

The Sphere: Thunder

I deliberately left out a "metal" element for obvious reasons.  Besides, this is a second draft and I'm not sure I'm happy with it, but that's a whole different discussion.

As for my non-metal album: Will the Circle Be Unbroken by The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, 105 minutes of bluegrass music.

I'm pretty sure the so-called "Big Four" was a music press creation more than a label executive's. Kerrang! journalist Malcolm Dome originally coined the term thrash metal, so I wouldn't bet against him or another metal journo coming up with the B4 epithet. Either way, you are right Morpheus, no actual thrash fans at the time called them collectively by that name. I'm surprised it's stuck around as a label to be honest because all four bands (yes, Slayer included) had their issues as metal moved into the nineties. I guess it's just because they are the most recognisable names to Joe Public and probably was jumped on as a convenient marketing tool.

Nevertheless, conversations like this are all around the internet, so it became a really common discussion point even when marketing the term isn't popular.

But I am a goat, and the greatest of all time.  You suggest I wouldn't know by now?

I agree that Testament has a lot of similarities to Metallica.  The New Order falls right in line with Master of Puppets.  But this suggests that Anthrax's legacy is built on being more commercial, which makes some sense.

 think stenchcore, if accepted, should go to The Horde, and if not the Horde, The Pit would be the closest second.

I'm already skeptical about inclusion in The Horde as the very first Stenchcore release I've explored (which is arguably the most well-known example of the subgenre too) has nothing whatsoever to do with death metal or grindcore. The Pit is a definite possibility though. I just have to figure out if the Stenchcore genre is even required or if the majority of its releases can fit under an existing subgenre easily enough. It'll be interesting to see.

Now that I think about it, The Pit COULD use a punk genre other than crossover thrash...

After finishing the Post Malone catalogue just for fucks, I'm heading straight into more Nadja.  Btw, if anyone can find the original 2003 version of Skin Turns to Glass, not the reworked version, please let me know.