Rexorcist's Forum Replies

Pixies should never be something that interests me in theory but I think I was programmed to enjoy "Doolittle" after being force fed it by a mate during high school. Now I find that whenever I revisit it I get into it more & more. I've even been known to do a laid back acoustic cover version of "Silver" at parties. I'll go with a 3.5/5.

The story of my musical life.  My top 100 even had a drone album at one point, and I hate most drone.

Right now I'm on a very rare blues binge.  Yesterday pretty much all I listened to was classic Piedmont era artists like Big Joe Williams and Sonny Terry.  I'm planning on some Howlin' Wolf today.

This is one of the best examples of a band who bridges the gap.  I'll also throw in Budgie.

I guess it comes down to what you understand rock & metal music to be, doesn't it? I was taught the different techniques for playing the two genres when I was in my early teenage years & those theoretical rules have stuck with me ever since so I see a well defined line between the two. As I've already explained in another recent thread, the point of contention shouldn't really be about how heavy or light-weight a release feels. You either have metal guitar & drum techniques being used or you don't as far as I'm concerned. Now, if we're going to be throwing the likes of Guns 'n' Roses, Def Leppard, Scorpions, AC/DC, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, etc. under the metal banner then I have to ask a pretty obvious question i.e. just what is hard rock music then because those are some clear examples of it as far as I'm concerned. To be open & transparent, my personal cut-off ratio for a release to qualify as metal is 40% i.e. if 40% or more of it's run time is legitimate metal then I'm happy enough to include it. Here's ten examples of some very big "metal" releases that I don't think should qualify as metal if we use that philosophy:

Kyuss - "Welcome To Sky Valley"

Boris - "Pink"

Rainbow - "Rising"

Black Flag - "My War"

Motorhead - "Overkill"

Primus - "Frizzle Fry"

Black Sabbath - "Technical Ecstasy"

Alcest - "Kodama"

Voivod - "Nothingface"

Elder - "Reflections of a Floating World"

My cut off is 50%.  Having said that, Zep is my favorite band and I would only put them as proto-metal, never the other.  Early Def counts, but AC/DC is hard rock through and through.  That's all they really do.  So far there are only two Deep Purple's I consider metal: In Rock and Perfect Strangers.

For the "clear example," every AC/DC album is generic hard rock, and I've heard them all for completionism's sake.  Occasional blues is present but that's pretty much it as far as diversity goes.  They do the same thing every album, and they never got any heavier than that.

Led Zeppelin could just be classified under hard rock, but they've done so many types of hard rock songs that a few early metal songs were thrown in the mix, but never enough one one album to count.  I mean, they had reggae and pop present on Houses of the Holy.

Hair metal itself is where it gets more confusing, as metallic production techniques were molded with AOR techniques.  But if you ask me, the majority doesn't even come close to metal, but there are a few who do, like Crue and Dokken.

Actually, if possible, there's one album I'd like added that isn't tagged as metal on RYM, but it fits my standard for regular heavy metal (and it's heavier than Sad Wings of Destiny, which is somehow metal, and heavier than the two Def Leppard albums that are allowed here), and three albums by this band are already one MA.  This is the ONLY album by this band I'll ask to add, and after that, I'm perfectly fine with all the other non-metal albums being excluded: Dr. Feelgood by Motley Crue.  It kinda mixes heavy metal with hard rock, but both are even enough if you ask me.

Could you also add Imaginations From the Other Side Live, please?

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/blind-guardian/imaginations-from-the-other-side-live/

It usually helps my listening experience.  Besides, I'm also comparing each thrash album to every other thrash album I've ever heard, so it makes no difference.

Although I only listened to Gore before checking this one out.  War By Proxy was listed as an EP so I got to that later.

Jurassic Jade - Never Forget Those Days (1991)

It's no surprise that international countries wanted a piece of some serious metal action.  Japan certainly loves their metal, and it's also no surprise that one of the more obscure ones would take the visual aspect into account by wearing corpse paint resembling kabuki make-up (or vise-versa?)  But did this really help the music?  NO!  Why would it?  Even after having heard their debut Gore, it's obvious that these guys are nothing more than just another thrash band.

I'm gonna keep this review simple for a good reason: Never Forget Those Days is a simple album.  Even though it's a fast and furious album, there was very little brainpower put into the writing, so it just feels like another garage band from Bandcamp.com.  Ironic; with titles like "The Warholic" and "Sayonara Suicide," you'd expect a very evil presence to plague this album the way it does the average Slayer release.  But no, the whole album feels like underdeveloped basic thrash that's trying to follow in the footsteps of the preceding album.  One of the pros of this underwritten album is that some songs like "Mere Anarchy" and the title track prove that these guys can play pretty damn fast without sacrificing too much rhythm.  And it's a suitable album for fans of crossover thrash or powerviolence since the production is more punk-oriented and the singer is doing more shouting than actual singing.

Fortunately, there are some moments where the band tries to take guitar "effects" and atmosphere into account, notably during the lengthy ending of "Kuroi Dōwa" where the guitars are going for a mix of white noise and space travel, so even though it wasn't an amazing solo by any means, it was one of the better and more original parts of this monotonous album.  And "Kindan Shojo" starts with some very dark moaning before going into a creepy and slow-moving metal piece with female orchestral vocals bringing out the mood.  So that really helped make the album less tiring.  But this doesn't always work.  Their attempt at a classic blues song with "Iyada" sucks.  It feels like a crappy bootleg demo from a different band.  And by the time the album ends, we just get a cheap and fairly dark instrumentation with some obnoxious group screaming that sounds completely fake.

I wouldn't recommend this album for anyone.  It's cheaply made and offers nothing new.  To be fair I found myself getting more annoyed by the album than anything.  These guys are pretty much only decent at the absolutel basics, and their efforts to expand their technique hurts as much as it helps.  Comparing this to their OK debut, Gore, helped bring a more accurate outlook on this one.  Gore isn't worth listening to, but it's still better than this.

5/10.

I'm going Jurassic Jade today.  I'm curious about Japanese thrash.

I wrote my Reign in Blood and South of Heaven reviews yesterday, and for some reason they're dated as having been published on the 22nd instead of the 31st.

When did people start using big four to refer to those bands, anyway? I remember reading that it was some record company invention to solely to sell more records rather than something people started naturally referring to. Although I guess it could be something that record companies latched onto, sort of how like every sports program I have the misfortune of listening to seems to consist of people screaming GOAT at each other. (greatest of all time, in case you don't get it)

As to Anthrax, their classic albums from the '80s sell a lot more than Testament's classic albums, while these days they're about neck and neck. This is probably because those classic albums get shilled a lot as "some of the only good metal" while Testament has escaped their notice. Probably because while they've had a lot of good stuff over the years, a lot of people probably wrote them off as a Metallica knock-off. I like 'em a lot, but its hard to argue with that conclusion.

Despite that, their newer albums are better than the current Metallica output.  Metallica haven't been sure of themselves since Reload failed.

Of course, I'm finding myself redefining my thrash standards on and off, so this may change.  In fact, you'd be surprised at my new pick for favorite Slayer album, and it was never once Reign in Blood.  I came into this thread to post that I have a pretty new outlook on Slayer, and yet it still fits my standards for any perfect album.

Slayer did the right thing taking time to focus on separate tempos and new melodies.  Even as a Christian, I gotta admit this is a perfectly made album.  It's more diverse than Reign in Blood and heavier than Seasons in the Abyss, which used to be my favorite.  I also appreciate the application of the crossover thrash attitude to the slower songs, and the traces of early groove that they'd take part in later.  And this change is right in the middle of me posting a preprepared top 100 metal albums forum on Metalforum and I'm halfway through the revelations.

What do you know?  I'm revealing that shit a few albums at a time and I'm already making changes.

Top 50 metal albums for me, and one of the first full metal albums I explored thanks to a long-lasting grunge buzz.

I guess I'll take the fourth Pit slot.  I can always hold off on the Pit challenge a little longer.

At the same time, I don't know if I can contribute to a pit one just yet.  I'm starting the early thrash challenge, so I've got 23 albums to review and listen to / replay.  Seriously, the way these guys sing is exactly like half the 80's hardcore singers I've already heard.

At least he's admitting to it.  But this is the kind of behavior that takes time to fully heal.  Hell, Meat Loaf saw three psychiatrists and he still couldn't get over his anger issues (though I don't think consistent family abuse was part of that).  I've worried about the bands status too, but this is the best decision Scotty could have made.  If Neurosis plans on continuing releasing music, they'll probably have to get some younger guy with a powerful voice the same way Alice in Chains did.

I'm a Pit man myself, so sign me up.  Throw me in for my other two clans when we get there.

Well, I'll keep trying to raise awareness of the site.  I told a coworker about this place, and he was a little curious.  Thankfully he's a metalcore fan.  In the meantime, let's simply discuss current list progress.

But what would we be winning?  Even if one of my ideas suddenly became law here, that means other people would have access to the rule besides me, so I'd have to adhere to the possibility that I would lose a hall vote anyway.  And if it happened tomorrow, I wouldn't be eligible anyway since I've only locked in one clan so far.  Maybe this technically went ignored by accident, but the idea I proposed was toward the spirit of the "academic" side by writing reviews of the albums that need to be voted, and even then you still need to lock three clans vefore you're eligible to vote for the album.  In other words, you'd have to PROVE that you know the album to vote, but also prove that you are true to your clans by locking all three of your clans in before you can vote.  It's an attempt to bring people motivation to finish their clan challenges, and you'd have to write 75 actual reviews in order to get there.  There's nothing easy about it.  I was the first here to complete the Early Power Metal list, and I plan on completing at least one for every clan just for fun.  However, that took me a couple of weeks because I had already heard about half the list, and I'm only getting 24 work hours a week, so I have a lot of free time.  Most people would never listen to as many albums a day as I have done since I was 18.  So the idea of voting outside clans would only be a privilege for those who are showing real dedication to the system, both their own clans and the site itself.

But if we had games that were pitting clans against each other, make no mistake that my first choice will always be The Guardians because power metal is my favorite metal genre.  But since this idea was rejected, all I can say now is that there is no way this could qualify as an easy win.

"Easy wins" seems like a poor choice of words, though.

But we can still but heads to find some fair way to do this without sacrificing the integrity of the clan system.  Maybe I see it a little differently since I'll listen to any metal genre, but if Daniel and Ben wanted to draw attention to the Hall, then it's still an important part despite being so small.

But there should at least be a temporary period for people to be able to get the Halls done if it needs help.  And it might make more sense if any aforementioned special condition for voting on the album may only apply to people who have actually reviewed it, and only if it's necessary, that way there's more protection.

And like I said, it would only be temporary, and it would only be for the active users who are contributing to the site.  But if that's not really possible at all then I've more or less decided which one I'll join.

Sixth months is WAY too long.  Besides, my mood changes every month or so.  Why don't we make it either two or three?

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a plea to include demos.  The first music site I joined wouldn't allow EP's or bootlegs.  But this makes for a decent discussion since there are so many.

The issues are valid.  Then I have a different suggestion.  Metalforum allows users to change their username three times a month.  What if we're allowed to change our fourth clan once a month?  Just until we get more popular here.  And this only applies to those who have a fourth clan, such as you or Ben.  Depending on how much free time I have, it may be around a month before I'm able to lock in all three threads, but for the most part.  But I think if this is the case, the first clan that needs my votes is either The Fallen or The North.  There are some things I definitely have to say about some of the albums submitted to those categories.  Of course, I've only heard about five of the Fallen albums and ten of the North albums.  But I'll get onto the Early Thrash challenge the moment the Lamb of God album I'm listening to ends.  I've rated a few of them, but I've only reviewed two or three so far.

Cool.

Then I have another proposition.  Since a big issue concerning the hall of judgment's progress is the lack of users therein, maybe we can cut down on the tumbleweeds another way.  Let's give every album inducted in the hall one month to complete, and the winning votes take over for that judgment unless there's only one vote.  I guess a minimum of 5 (3 at the extreme) should do it, that way there's either a 2-1 or a 3-2 victory.  In the event of a tie after one month, users who have completed three list challenges and locked in three clans have the right to vote on that specific hall regardless of their clans, but they'll have to review it on Metal Academy before anything else.  And after another week or so, the judgment is made, and if there is still a tie, the result is no.  This should give people a little more motivation to write reviews.

Of course, this should only be temporary due to the lack in activity.  However, I noticed that a full page of forum posts I hadn't yet read were taking over the recent posts section, and that didn't even cover all of the posts.  That's a good sign.

Would I get to change my fourth, though?  I may not want to stick with that fourth forever.

Participation in the Hall of Judgement only helps if the member understands & appreciates the clan well & are willing to explore the release in question with an open mind. Otherwise it can just as easily be a hinderance to the accuracy of our genre tagging. There's no point in someone that doesn't really like or understand the symphonic metal genre making calls on a symphonic metal record & that's the whole point of the Metal Academy clan philosophy. It's actually our differentiator over the competition.

I guessed that.  I'm honestly in full support of this issue, of course this is also why I find it hard to decide what my fourth will be.  Ideally, whatever has the biggest range for me to participate in.  After literally 2,000 metal albums, the process of selecting one out of six mathematically twice as hard as selecting three out of nine, and I kinda of feel that pressure.

Oh, I see what you’re saying. Sorry. I forgot you have to complete your existing clans before attacking a fourth. Consider it locked in.

Thanks.  But something tells me this is not a recurring theme here, is it?

Quote:

"Completion of any Clan Challenge will "lock in" that clan for that Metal Academy attendee. Note that completing any Clan Challenge will achieve this, so you don't have to complete them all for any particular clan. Once you've locked in all three of your starting clans, you can lock in a fourth one to add that clan to your profile. That's right, you can earn yourself a fourth clan!"

So what does "lock in" mean?

I've reviewed all 25 of the Early Days of Power Metal list, and I made sure they were in-depth, at least a good paragraph or two long, and carried much of my personal judgement.  So how does the "lock in" thing work?

If Rising actually did become non-metal, what would that have meant to the clan list they're featured in? Seems like it might have been weird to have a non-metal release be important for a challenge.

This.  Maybe the lists themselves do need to be updated, of course, for anyone who's reviewed albums that would be kicked off or replaced after the update, that could pose a problem if they need to review more than 25 albums for the same list... unless of course each user could keep a recorded score of the list, so that they don't lost "points" if an album they reviewed is replaced.  Of course, this is only in the event that a list needs to be updated.

From what I looked up in the halls section, this marks the first finished hall for the Fallen.

Alright.  I got a few noms prepared already.

I don't remember that.  I remember it being pretty samey, but then again it has been a year.  Still, whatever speed tracks are on that album might be very good, but stylistically they're market brand.

Currently listening to Rage - Black in Mind.

Lemme share with you some Metalforum usernames: Goatmaster General, Relentless Oblivion, Sheol, Surgical Brute, Macabre Eternal, True Belief and Father Alabaster.  You'd think they'd have something better down for the ranks, especially if we implement them here where there's a clan system.

Actually, I wouldn't mind if each clan had different names for the ranks.

I found myself on an Embryo binge today, since I'm in need of a bit more jazz fusion.

Clan Legends sounds way more metal.  Metalforum actually has a ranking system depending on some sort of point system.  There are 14 titles, apparently.  But they're lame ones like Newbie, Apprentice, Explorer, etc.  Right now I'm "Enthusiast."  What the hell is that?

Finally!  I get to represent a punk genre that isn't forced under another metal tag like crossover thrash!  Also, I don't think I'll be joining the revolution for my fourth clan when I get the right to a fourth one.

It's an interesting suggestion thanks Vinny. I assume that the idea will also encompass the polar opposite functionality so that I can filter the forums to show only my beloved genre-tag related threads? :) Would the ability to simply filter out the Hall of Judgement forum suffice?

In that case, to avoid tediousness among users there would have to be two separate filters where one of the two is a special case specifically for that subforum, and the other applies to single threads.  There's no real reason to filter out any other entire subforums.

True but considering the staff is very limited, there may be other potentially more important features to include and program first.  Even RYM has a million things to do and they have a staff of around 200 moderators, but only two developers.

No need to get snarky.  If you think of a good enough conversation then people might post on it 

Why not start a few new threads of your own?

I was mostly speaking from the mindset of Heavy Metal Maniac.  But still, speed is more about that attitudinal energy, which is The Pit's signature trait.

Then lemme take a crack at it.  First, lemme say that I'm 100% what you said about the difference between thrash and speed.  Take bands like Exciter.  Each song is basically an attempt at being a fast and energetic hard rock song, which is basically the most generic form you can takes.  ADX falls in this category as well.  Power metal is different in the sense that it's a much more anthemic and dramatic genre, where as thrash is almost entirely about riffage, which is where technicality comes in as well.

In the context of neoclassical metal, it doesn't require the bombast of symphonic metal and is much closer to a progressive sound than it is to a power sound.  But because there was never a scene, the term can get loose.  A good outlier would be the difference between two different albums: Under the Force of Courage by Galneryus which is more focuses on the complexity that classical has shown before, and Dawn of Victory by Rhapsody, which is more focuses on the vibe and sound of classical in general in a more cinematic way.  Basically, the difference between speed and thrash is mostly the same difference between symphonic and neoclassical: presence vs. technicality.

At least this is the basic rundown of how I see it.  Now power metal is RELATED in the sense that it can attach itself to these four genres like it was nothing.  Power thrash is a relatively easy combination to make, as proven by early Iced Earth, Imagika and Parodox.  However, as far as comparing relations goes, power metal doesn't often get confused with anything except the US brand, which is less bombastic and more focuses on heavy metal roots.

I don't think it's interchangeable with thrash at all.  Despite that, because of its direct attitude, I believe it belongs in the Pit.  Power metal albums are mostly focuses on melody and drama, but speed and thrash are both focuses on attitude, even though rhythm and jams are a bigger part of speed metal.  Besides, we already have one clan taking five genres, I don't think we need another.

Personally, I have always viewed speed metal as the evolutionary step between heavy metal and thrash metal, so I'm kind of on the fence with this one and feel that both The Guardians and The Pit have a valid claim on it's inclusion. Maybe as it was birthed within The Guardians remit though, then they have the stronger claim, but I could be persuaded either way.

A key outlier for me is jam factor vs. riff factor.  Thrash metal tends to be less melody-oriented and focused on a more evil or just malevolent presence than speed metal, which is closer to the original heavy metal spirit, like hard rock on steroids.  The Angel Dust debut either switches between the two or merges them, and it makes for a good exercize in determining which is which, especially if you go right for the next album which is almost entirely absent of thrash.

But.... Grin is their best album! (hides to avoid immediate backlash)

Honestly I couldn't give a crap about the backlash over stuff like that, especially since this whole "signature album" rule is broken often, especially by The Beatles.  Sometimes it;s a war between two albums, like Cocteau Twins' Treasure and Heaven or Las Vegas.  Plus, my favorite Coroner is No More Color and I'm kinda disappointed in the Beatles cover on Mental Vortex.

Plus, all the Coroner albums are good enough to justify a "favorite album" comment, and in Grin's case, if someone likes groove more that thrash, or is just tired of straight thrash, it makes sense.