Daniel's Forum Replies

How about depressive power metal or blackened funk metal?

By the way Ben, goregrind is definitely a different beast to traditional grindcore. It has its own attributes & deserves its own category in my opinion.

I would say no it's not Andi. I don't think there's much correlation between the style I'm referring to & the likes of Atheist, Death or Opeth. Gorguts came up with a completely new sound with "Obscura" & that style has been championed by a number of acts since. Dissonant death metal is just as likely to repel progressive & tech death fans as it is to appeal to them so i feel it warrants it's own subgenre.  Meshuggah & The Ocean don't base their entire sound around dissonance in the same way. Not by a long shot.

Sonny, I agree that dissonant black metal is a thing too. Particularly in the wake of Deathspell Omega.

Andi & Saxy, I'd recommend Cult Of Luna's "Somewhere Along The Highway" as a premium example of the post-metal sound.

Spectacular Swedish post-metal for fans of Isis, Neurosis & The Ocean.

I've given "Somewhere Along The Highway" a few revisits over the last two days & I'm subsequently going to retract my above statements. I think it's a genuinely classic post-metal release that possesses enormous dynamics & genuine beauty. It doesn't really belong here in The Fallen if I'm honest though. In fact, it's a prime example of why the atmospheric sludge metal label is completely redundant as there's very little doubt that this has a lot more to do with post-rock than it does with sludge metal.

I generally find that the psychedelic doom releases are tagged as stoner metal although I've never agreed with it personally. My concept of stoner metal is a lot more groovy than doom metal & I don't find it to be half as appealing.

A track from the new  "Fracmont" album from Swiss death/thrash outfit Messiah which is due out on 11th September.

The new single from LA sludge metallers Thou.

Amenra - "Mass VI Live"

I think the common consensus online has been to label the traditional black metal sound as "raw black metal" but I'm not sure that this is an accurate term for all releases that would fall into that category. "Old school death metal" also has its issues as it hints that the release is actually old. The  "classic" prefix isn't perfect either mind you as it indicates that the release is just that i.e. a classic. I don't think we're gonna find a perfect solution there so we'll just need to go with the consensus. My vote goes for "classic".

I've got a few other suggestions over the RYM subgenre list too:

I'd like to see these subgenres included as they're clearly required: progressive death metal, progressive thrash metal, blackened thrash, symphonic death metal, perhaps even blackened death metal & death/thrash?

I think the "traditional doom metal" genre tag is a definite thing. It's just that the use of it is so inconsistent that it makes it hard for people to understand (see Candlemass' first couple of records which are pure doom metal but seem to draw the traditional tag almost unanimously or the fact that most traditional doom bands sound exactly like Black Sabbath yet Sabbath is somehow exempt from the tag. Essentially I see traditional doom metal as a form of doom metal that is diluted by other subgenres like heavy metal, hard rock, blues rock, psychedelic rock, progressive rock, etc. but still has the essence of the doom atmosphere. But is it different from your pure doom metal model to command its own subgenre? I don't think so to be honest. I'd be happy for us to make a call on this as a group.

I'd like to see the "atmospheric sludge metal" subgenre abandoned as it's essentially the same thing as post-metal.

Do we include NWOBHM as a subgenre? It will mean that releases from that movement have the potential to not come up in heavy metal searches &, despite the fact that the New Wave definitely has its own unique attributes & characteristics, it also covers such a diverse range of sounds from speed metal to traditional doom metal. I'd suggest omitting it.

I'm still not buying it to be honest. The only reason I said that "Into The Pandemonium" fit the term "avant-garde" at the time of release was because the dictionary definition the word is "new and experimental ideas and methods in art, music, or literature; favouring or introducing new and experimental ideas and methods." But if that was all there was to it then Metallica, Helloween & Napalm Death would also be referred to as avant-garde metal & they're obviously not. That's because for something to be thought of as truly avant-garde in metal music it has to not only tread new ground by combining multiple influences but those influences need to be a challenge to accept. If a sound works too fluently then the term becomes less appropriate. I firmly believe that Celtic Frost just created a new subgenre here (i.e. gothic metal) in the same way that Black Sabbath created one. It doesn't sound as artistically challenging as a genuinely avant-garde release like Bubblegum Octopus' "The Album Formerly Known as 8-Legged Dance Moves" by a long stretch so I'd much rather keep the term for records that truly deserve it. I mean "Mexican Radio" is simply a poppy heavy metal track & "Inner Sanctum", "Babylon Fell" & "Caress Into Oblivion" are essentially very similar to Frost's previous thrash metal works. "One In Their Pride" is a one-off industrial piece influenced by New Order but it was nothing unusual for a band to include a drastic change of direction track as an interlude to break things up a bit. Black Sabbath were doing that back in 1970's after all. The rest of the album all fits in with the modern understanding of gothic metal in my opinion. There is plenty that reminds me very much of Tiamat & Paradise Lost here. So in summary we have a mixed bag of sounds but not much that genuinely challenges my ears for a label which is generally the case with truly avant-garde metal.

And on the topic of historical context, I think that it takes time for a subgenre's sound to develop but once it has it remains fairly stable. I actually don't see us changing our stance on what constitutes death metal, black metal, etc. over time as much as people seem to indicate. We simply saw those sounds developing over a period of five to ten years with a number of bands being hybrids before they settled on an outcome but once the final article was settled upon their definition has stayed the same ever since. Avant-garde metal is admittedly more of a catch-all than a legitimate subgenre so I don't think it can be referred to in as definitive a way but there were releases that came before "Into The Pandemonium" that are still much more appropriately tagged with the avant-garde label (like 1982's self-tiled "Warning" record I referred to earlier) & that's because they sound a lot stranger & challenge our concepts of music in a theoretical sense & I think that's the crucial element here. I just can't get my head around the relevance of labeling a release as "avant-garde metal" when there are other releases that sound the same as it that aren't labeled the same way. The only reason to smack the label on in the first place is to give people an idea of what they're likely to hear & if I said this release is gothic thrash metal it's a far more accurate description than avant-garde thrash metal in my opinion. I've always thought that & my opinion hasn't changed over time.

Look, by the dictionary definition of the term "avant-garde" this record was certainly a decent fit at the time. But I think it's important to remember what we're trying to achieve with the genre tagging here at Metal Academy & that's to create an environment where it's easy to identify music that's in line with your unique tastes & preferences. For that reason, I think it's important that we use the modern understandings of metal terminology. Also, I've always regarded truly avant-garde music as sounding a bit off-putting & strange. The self-titled debut album from German band Warning is a fine example of that as you never quite feel comfortable with their incredible amalgamation of doom metal with progressive electronic & synth pop sounds even though you really enjoy the experience. I don't get that feeling with "Into The Pandemonium" & I never did. A lot of that has to do with the fact that Celtic Frost are so damn successful with their experimentation here. The vast majority of the material sounds so fluent & fully realised so I never feel that uncomfortable feeling that I associate with truly avant-garde music as opposed to simply ambitious, experimental or progressive music.

Regardless of all of that, if I think that "Into The Pandemonium" often sounds like gothic metal period Tiamat then both acts should be tagged the same regardless of the era they come from. These tags are purely meant as an indication of whether someone will like the music contained on the release or not so it's best for there to be standardization across musical history.

P.s. Yes I'm one of those people that believes Venom & Mercyful Fate are not even close to black metal. Have been since the late 1980's too.

One of the more traditional European thrash metal outings from a highly experimental Celtic Frost record.

Celtic Frost - "Into The Pandemonium" (1987)

A genuinely ambitious & interesting departure from the standard European thrash metal model that saw Tom G. Warrior & co. experimenting with a number of musically disparate genres (such as gothic rock, new wave, synth pop, industrial, etc.) to great artistic effect. It may be the point that some old-school thrashers got off the boat but I've always found it to be a consistently intriguing & engaging listen, despite not being quite as rewarding as most of Frost's earlier work.

4/5

A ripper of a second wave-inspired black metal number from these blackened thrash exponents from Athens, Greece.

I hadn't until now but thanks for the heads up because I really enjoyed it. The production & performances are very good & this contributes to a professional & accessible package that offers excellent gravel-throated vocals & dark but catchy tremolo-picked second wave black metal riffs. It's kind of a 60/40 mixture between Nifelheim/Destroyer 666 style blackened thrash & the classic Norwegian black metal of Darkthrone & Satyricon in my opinion & it therefore sits more comfortably under The North than it does The Pit if I'm honest, particularly as the pure black metal material is vastly superior to the thrashier material. I absolutely love a few of the pure black metal tracks like "Hail Revenge", "Winds Of Damnation" & "Snakes Crawl" but these highlights are inevitably followed by a less impressive number based on punky d-beat infused speed metal riffs ("Morbid Blood" & "With Hunger In Eyes" for example). Still... this is quality black metal in my opinion so I appreciate the recommendation. :)

4/5

My revised list:

25. Obituary - "Cause Of Death" (1990)     

24. Suffocation - "Effigy Of The Forgotten" (1991)     

23. My Dying Bride - "Turn Loose The Swans" (1993)     

22. Morbid Angel - "Blessed Are The Sick" (1991)     

21. Metallica - "Master Of Puppets" (1986)     

20. Darkthrone - "Transilvanian Hunger" (1994)     

19. Carcass - "Necroticism: Descanting The Insalubrious" (1991)     

18. ISIS - "Panopticon" (2004)     

17. Neurosis - "Souls At Zero" (1992)    

16. Botch - "We Are The Romans" (1999)

15. Slayer - "South Of Heaven" (1988)     

14. Immolation - "Close To A World Below" (2000)     

13. Suffocation - "Pierced From Within" (1995)     

12. Boris - "Boris At Last -Feedbacker-" (2003)     

11. Alice In Chains - "Dirt" (1992)     

10. Death - "Human" (1991)     

09. Morbid Angel - "Altars Of Madness" (1989)     

08. Metallica - "...And Justice For All" (1988)     

07. diSEMBOWELMENT - "Transcendence Into The Peripheral" (1993)     

06. ISIS - "The Mosquito Control" E.P. (1998)     

05. Sunn O))) - "Black One" (2005)     

04. Pig Destroyer - "Natasha" E.P. (2008) 

03. Deathspell Omega - "Kenose" E.P. (2005) 

02. Burzum - "Filosofem" (1996)     

01. Slayer - "Reign In Blood" (1986)

My revised list:

1970: Black Sabbath – “Paranoid”

1971: Black Sabbath – “Master Of Reality” 

1972: Black Sabbath – “Vol 4” 

1973: Black Sabbath – “Sabbath Bloody Sabbath” 

1974: Budgie – “In For The Kill” 

1975: Black Sabbath – “Sabotage” 

1976: Rainbow – “Rising” 

1977: Quartz – “Quartz” 

1978: Judas Priest – “Killing Machine” 

1979: Judas Priest – “Unleashed In The East” 

1980: Diamond Head – “Lightning To The Nations” 

1981: Motorhead – “No Sleep Till Hammersmith” 

1982: Ozzy Osbourne – “Speak Of The Devil” 

1983: Slayer – “Show No Mercy” 

1984: Metallica – “Ride The Lightning” 

1985: Exodus – “Bonded By Blood” 

1986: Slayer – “Reign In Blood” 

1987: Bathory – “Under The Sign Of The Black Mark” 

1988: Metallica – “…And Justice For All” 

1989: Morbid Angel – “Altars Of Madness” 

1990: Slayer - "Seasons In The Abyss" 

1991: Death – “Human” 

1992: Alice In Chains – “Dirt” 

1993: diSEMBOWELMENT – “Transcendence Into The Peripheral” 

1994: Darkthrone – “Transilvanian Hunger” 

1995: Suffocation – “Pierced From Within” 

1996: Burzum – “Filosofem” 

1997: Exodus – “Another Lesson In Violence” 

1998: ISIS – “The Mosquito Control” E.P. 

1999: Botch - "We Are The Romans"

2000: Immolation – “Close To A World Below” 

2001: Green Carnation – “Light Of Day, Day Of Darkness” 

2002: ISIS – “Oceanic” 

2003: Boris – “Boris At Last -Feedbacker-“ 

2004: ISIS – “Panopticon” 

2005: Deathspell Omega – “Kenose” E.P. 

2006: Celtic Frost – “Monotheist” 

2007: Wolves In The Throne Room – “Two Hunters” 

2008: Pig Destroyer - "Natasha" E.P. 

2009: Alice In Chains – “Black Gives Way To Blue” 

2010: Hate – “Erebos” 

2011: Esoteric – “Paragon Of Dissonance” 

2012: Gaza – “No Absolutes In Human Suffering” 

2013: Suffocation – “Pinnacle Of Bedlam” 

Get on this one immediately Andi. It will blow your mind.

Utterly mind-blowing Washington mathcore.

Botch - "We Are The Romans" (1999)

Most of our regulars would be aware that I don't dish out the full five stars very often at all. A release has to be absolutely perfectly in tune with my personal taste & also be impeccably performed & executed with an unparalleled level of creative ambition even to be considered. But 1999's sophomore album from Washington-based mathcore outfit Botch is not only an amazing release for the subgenre but it may well be the best mathcore record I've ever experienced. I honestly didn't know that this style of music could reach these heights. This is truly superior metal music that thumbs its nose at the competition. For fans of Converge, The Dillinger Escape Plan & Gaza.

5/5

I get where you're coming from here saxy. I felt pretty similar when I first encountered "Wolverine Blues" but time & familiarity saw the hooks digging their teeth in as this was a much catchier version of Entombed than we'd heard previously. In saying that though, if you don't like this record then you're unlikely to enjoy the death 'n' roll subgenre in general as it's definitely the best example I've come across.

I actually disagree with you here Andi. As I mentioned in The Revolution forums yesterday, there is definitely a grindcore influence evident in a lot of the material however those references don't often go beyond hints. With the exception of the very intense "Shallow Reflective Pools of Guilt", I think the majority of the release hovers between metalcore & hardcore punk so I'm fine with "Impenetrable Cerebral Fortress" having The Revolution as its lone subgenre. Your reference to "under two-minute songs filled with the noise of heavily distorted guitars, bass in max-overdrive, high-speed drums, and wide-range growls/screams" could just as easily be referring to hardcore as grindcore in my opinion.

Let's see what the Hall thinks though, shall we?

An absolute rip-snorter of an opener from this Californian metalcore outfit. I love the hints at grindcore.

OK, so I gave "Impenetrable Cerebral Fortress" a few solid spins this morning & I have to say that I was really impressed. Gulch are a band that are right at the peak of their powers from both a technical & creative point of view & I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. It's interesting that there's a heated debate going on at RYM around the primary & secondary subgenres employed on this release. To my ears it's a shared metalcore & hardcore punk primary with a grindcore secondary. The hardcore element is stronger than the metal one most of the time but those hints at grindcore represent some of the most exciting parts & I'm a little disappointed that they haven't expanded on them further to be honest. Perhaps that's half the attraction though as Gulch never sit still for very long & seem to be racing against the clock to chuck all of their ideas into the shortest space of time possible. It's hard to understand how no one has nominated  grindcore as a secondary on RYM though as it's really pretty obvious. In fact, I'm just as surprised to see death metal & deathcore being tossed around by most people because I can hear very little of that.

Thanks a lot for the tip-off Xephyr. Andi, you need to get on this one.

4/5

Hardcore-driven mid-80's crossover thrash from San Francisco's godfathers of the subgenre. For fans of Municipal Waste, Suicidal Tendencies & S.O.D.

D.R.I. - "Crossover" (1987)

This was where my interest in San Francisco crossover thrash godfathers D.R.I. began after I didn't find their debut album "Dealing With It" to be terribly appealing. Perhaps it's simply the stubborn old metalhead in me but I seem to prefer the longer track durations, more controlled tempos & more structured song-writing on offer on their sophomore effort. There are still a few flat numbers here but they're comfortably out-weighed by pure hardcore adrenaline & thrashy riff-tastic head-bangers. You're unlikely to find anything life-changing here but this was the record that the crossover thrash movement took its name from for a reason & fans of Municipal Waste, Suicidal Tendencies & S.O.D. will  more than likely have a good ol' time with it.

3.5/5

Eisbrecher & Oomph! seem to be the two artists that get the most appreciation although I can't say I'm familiar with either of them. Perhaps check them out & let us all know if they're worth our time or not.

Challenge accepted! I'll investigate this release over the next couple days & report back.

Japanese drone/stoner/noise phenomenon Boris have just released their "Archive II" set which includes a trio of compilations containing unreleased demo material: Volume Zero "Early Demo" (1993-96), Volume Four "Evil Stack Live" (2003) & Volume Five "Pink Days" (2006).

The new single from French progressive metallers Gojira entitled "Another World".

The new single from Icelandic post-metallers Sólstafir which is taken from their upcoming album "Endless Twilight of Codependent Love" which is due for release on 6th November.

The new single from English black metal outfit Anaal Nathrakh entitled "Endarkenment" which is taken from their upcoming album of the same name which is due for release on 2nd October.

Here's my review of "Wolverine Blues" which says everything I need to say on the topic:

https://metal.academy/reviews/14613/695

3.5/5

I've never been able to understand the hatred for this record. It's very close to being a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned & is clearly the best example of the blackgaze subgenre that I've experienced. Sure there are some sweeter melodies than you'd usually associate with black metal but they're nicely counter-balanced by some searing aggression. The musicianship is excellent & those screeching vocals really do it for me. It's just such a professional package all round.

4.5/5

Awesome work Ben. That's much better & I think this feature will encourage more people to contribute on releases that sit outside of their personal clans as they'll now be able to easily see all of the releases without having to go to foreign forums.

I notice that the cover art is being cut off. Not a big deal but it wasn't before. Easily fixed or a major hassle?

Boris - "Akuma no uta" (2003)

Sonny & Chris Van Etten, you boys need to get onto the re-release version of this one pronto if you haven't already. High class stoner rock with noise rock & drone metal elements.

An unmitigated drone metal classic of the highest order from the Japanese masters of the sound.

Boris - "あくまのうた (Akuma no uta)" (2003)

Boris is such a talented, ambitious & unique band & "Akuma no Uta" showcases this in no uncertain terms. It sees the trio combining stoner rock, stoner metal, drone metal, noise rock & psychedelic rock into one extremely varied release that not only manages to perfectly replicate the warm, organic atmosphere of late 60's/early 70's rock music but is also very successful at everything it touches. In truth, I'd suggest that this is more of a stoner rock record than a metal one & it should please fans of Kyuss, Monster Magnet & early Queens Of The Stone Age.

4/5

This is the re-release which has a different & greatly extended take of the opening track. I'd strongly urge you to go with this one over the original as this new version of drone metal monster "Introduction" is not only the album highlight but is also one of the best examples of the subgenre you'll ever hear. I'll go with an extra half mark for this one too.

4.5/5

Sonny & Vinny, I'll be surprised if you don't dig this very solid meat-&-potatoes US thrash metal record.

Oustanding US thrash metal from 1987 for fans of Exodus, Vio-lence & Nuclear Assault.

Sacred Reich - "Ignorance" (1987)

The debut album from this meat-&-potatoes thrash metal outfit from Phoenix, Arizona. It's much rawer & more intense than their later efforts but lacks the hooks & polish that separated Sacred Reich's follow-up "The American Way" from the pack. Fans of Exodus, Vio-lence & Nuclear Assault should lap this up though as it offers some very solid US thrash with no real weak moments.

4/5

Or could it highlight the immortality of classic metal & in doing so empower us to reach greater heights? I mean "Black Sabbath" is 50 years old & still unfathomably powerful after all. On the other hand, Andi might not feel as old as some of us when he sees these anniversaries. In fact, he may have the exact opposite reaction to the one we do.

I like it a lot Ben. What time zone does the page update take place under? Is it Australian ESDT?

It really says something that no one else picked that up until now, doesn't it? I think we've all probably referred to "Cowboys From Hell" as Pantera's debut at some point (despite the fact that I quite like 1984's "Projects In The Jungle" album).

Djent-fueled Minneapolis deathcore for fans of Veil Of Maya, Within The Ruins & Rings Of Saturn.

So I've finally gotten around to checking this release out this week & what I didn't realise when I posted it as one of our March feature releases was that there are actually two very different versions of this album. The one pictured above is the original version which was released in 2008 while the one pictured below is the re-release from the following year that also came with a DVD. The re-release has had some of the parts re-recorded after the band were disappointed with the result of the original sessions & this includes a much more powerful vocal performance & a punchier drum sound. I didn't bother with the original version as people seemed to be unanimous with there preference for the re-recording.

On first listen I was immediately taken out of my comfort zone & it took me a while to recover. All of the generic deathcore attributes are here only they're done with incredible professionalism & precision, not to mention an enormous focus on melody which is not usually my bag. While this is certainly a deathcore record at its core, the djent component is very strong too with some of those mind-bending off-beat rhythms being ridiculously well executed. I'd throw melodic metalcore in there too as the regular use of melodeath style melodies is probably the element I most struggled with early on.

The production & performances are almost too precise at times, to the point where After The Burial sound mechanical most of the time. Meshuggah has obviously been a major influence on the band in this regard. I don't really like the vocals which sound like every other deathcore band you've ever heard but thankfully the lead guitar work is utterly stunning & it's often used to colour some of the more generic deathcore breakdowns. The performance of the rhythm section (particularly the drummer) is very strong too.

Overall, I have to admit that I quite enjoy three quarters of "Rareform" with the couple of tracks that I don't like unsurprisingly being the two more popular ones with the deathcore audience (i.e. "Berzerker" & "Ometh" which are the more melodic tracks). I've always been partial to a bit of deathcore when it's infused with a little more ambition & this release fits the mould fairly well so "Rareform" scores a respectable 3.5/5 rating from me.