Melodic Metalcore is it's own genre... but not deathcore? (and another question

First Post January 09, 2022 01:24 AM

Heyy


So, I know I'm not a member of Revolution (soon™), but I couldn't help but notice that melodic metalcore is considered a completely different genre to metalcore, but deathcore is just a subgenre of metalcore. I feel like either they should both be subgenres or they should both be genres, no? Would be pretty cool to have a deathcore list for a clan challenge.


Speaking of clan challenge lists, why isn't there one for trance metal? It actually is considered a separate genre and yet there's no clan challenge for it.


Edit: I know I messed up the thread title. I've had covid lately and my brain has just been, like, afk because of it.

January 09, 2022 03:14 AM

Rate Your Music (which is where the metal genre/subgenre categories came from for Metal Academy) has recently switched melodic metalcore into a metalcore subgenre instead of one of the main metal genres, so now it's the same level as deathcore. I think it really would make sense if deathcore is a main metal genre since it mixes metalcore with death metal, maybe for both The Horde and The Revolution? Then again, I would end up quitting assembling the Revolution monthly playlist because I lost my tolerance for death metal last year (more info here: https://metal.academy/forum/10/thread/748). I once made a couple clan challenge proposals for Ben; one to make clan challenges for the remaining main genres, and the other to make clan challenges for all the subgenres, but the latter idea would take too much work, and he's currently taking a hiatus from creating new clan challenges. I've sent to him via private message some release ideas for the remaining genre clan challenges for in case he decides to continue making them (I can privately tell you my release ideas for the trance metal clan challenge if you would like). When I assemble the Revolution playlists, I make sure to include all of its genres and subgenres while considering an appropriate ratio between them based on release notability, and I kind of think of trance metal and trancecore as the same thing because of their similarity in sound and the very little amount of releases for both of them. Trance metal has much less! Either way, any Revolution genre and subgenre is welcome in the Revolution playlists, so please feel free to submit your Revolution track suggestion here (one per non-members): https://metal.academy/forum/14/thread/484

PS: Sorry to hear you have the virus. Feel better soon, Scarecrow.

January 09, 2022 04:35 AM

Hi Scarecrow. Very valid questions. When we originally created the Metal Academy website we had to decide on a reasonable configuration & wouldn't profess to be experts in every metal subgenre so we simply went with the most well informed position we could at the time. In saying that though, we're always looking for ways to improve the site & have made dozens of changes over time. I agree with you that in hindsight Melodic Metalcore should be under Metalcore & it's likely be something that we'll look to change in the future. Just bare in mind that every change we make to the database structure can create a considerable logistical challenge as we've already got tens of thousands of releases in play under the current structure. There's also a financial cost for us to make most changes so we tend to do them in batches in order to get the most bang for buck with our developer.

As for why there's not a trance metal clan challenge, that's because there are very few genuine trance metal releases of any note which makes it pretty irrelevant as a guide to a potential new clan member's understanding of The Revolution. In fact, I'm now of the opinion that Trance Metal probably doesn't belong in The Revolution & may not even warrant its own subgenre. That might be something we look at over time too.

January 09, 2022 07:28 AM


Rate Your Music (which is where the metal genre/subgenre categories came from for Metal Academy) has recently switched melodic metalcore into a metalcore subgenre instead of one of the main metal genres, so now it's the same level as deathcore. I think it really would make sense if deathcore is a main metal genre since it mixes metalcore with death metal, maybe for both The Horde and The Revolution? Then again, I would end up quitting assembling the Revolution monthly playlist because I lost my tolerance for death metal last year (more info here: https://metal.academy/forum/10/thread/748). I once made a couple clan challenge proposals for Ben; one to make clan challenges for the remaining main genres, and the other to make clan challenges for all the subgenres, but the latter idea would take too much work, and he's currently taking a hiatus from creating new clan challenges. I've sent to him via private message some release ideas for the remaining genre clan challenges for in case he decides to continue making them (I can privately tell you my release ideas for the trance metal clan challenge if you would like). When I assemble the Revolution playlists, I make sure to include all of its genres and subgenres while considering an appropriate ratio between them based on release notability, and I kind of think of trance metal and trancecore as the same thing because of their similarity in sound and the very little amount of releases for both of them. Trance metal has much less! Either way, any Revolution genre and subgenre is welcome in the Revolution playlists, so please feel free to submit your Revolution track suggestion here (one per non-members): https://metal.academy/forum/14/thread/484

PS: Sorry to hear you have the virus. Feel better soon, Scarecrow.

Quoted shadowdoom9 (Andi)


But isn't deathcore already under the Revolution banner already? You make it sound like deathcore isn't already something you can put in the Revolution playlist, when it seems like you can from what I read. I am interested in seeing the clan challenge proposals, as I think it's a super cool and educational (for lack of a better word) idea. I hope Ben's hiatus isn't for too long, it would be a shame if the idea was abandoned. I also agree that trancecore and trance metal are incredibly similar in sound, if not entirely indistinguishable. 


Hi Scarecrow. Very valid questions. When we originally created the Metal Academy website we had to decide on a reasonable configuration & wouldn't profess to be experts in every metal subgenre so we simply went with the most well informed position we could at the time. In saying that though, we're always looking for ways to improve the site & have made dozens of changes over time. I agree with you that in hindsight Melodic Metalcore should be under Metalcore & it's likely be something that we'll look to change in the future. Just bare in mind that every change we make to the database structure can create a considerable logistical challenge as we've already got tens of thousands of releases in play under the current structure. There's also a financial cost for us to make most changes so we tend to do them in batches in order to get the most bang for buck with our developer.

As for why there's not a trance metal clan challenge, that's because there are very few genuine trance metal releases of any note which makes it pretty irrelevant as a guide to a potential new clan member's understanding of The Revolution. In fact, I'm now of the opinion that Trance Metal probably doesn't belong in The Revolution & may not even warrant its own subgenre. That might be something we look at over time too.

Quoted Daniel

I understand that. If it's more about the logistics/cost behind it then yeah I don't see a reason to prioritize this change either.


I would be a little sad if trance metal was done away with because I like the genre. I know it's definitely smaller than a lot of the other genres here, but I feel like eliminating it entirely would leave some bands/albums without genres that truly describe their sound (Like, what would you call Blood Stain Child if not trance metal? Melodeath? That would feel slightly misleading). 

January 09, 2022 08:08 AM

Rate Your Music (which is where the metal genre/subgenre categories came from for Metal Academy) has recently switched melodic metalcore into a metalcore subgenre instead of one of the main metal genres, so now it's the same level as deathcore. I think it really would make sense if deathcore is a main metal genre since it mixes metalcore with death metal, maybe for both The Horde and The Revolution? Then again, I would end up quitting assembling the Revolution monthly playlist because I lost my tolerance for death metal last year (more info here: https://metal.academy/forum/10/thread/748). I once made a couple clan challenge proposals for Ben; one to make clan challenges for the remaining main genres, and the other to make clan challenges for all the subgenres, but the latter idea would take too much work, and he's currently taking a hiatus from creating new clan challenges. I've sent to him via private message some release ideas for the remaining genre clan challenges for in case he decides to continue making them (I can privately tell you my release ideas for the trance metal clan challenge if you would like). When I assemble the Revolution playlists, I make sure to include all of its genres and subgenres while considering an appropriate ratio between them based on release notability, and I kind of think of trance metal and trancecore as the same thing because of their similarity in sound and the very little amount of releases for both of them. Trance metal has much less! Either way, any Revolution genre and subgenre is welcome in the Revolution playlists, so please feel free to submit your Revolution track suggestion here (one per non-members): https://metal.academy/forum/14/thread/484

PS: Sorry to hear you have the virus. Feel better soon, Scarecrow.

Quoted shadowdoom9 (Andi)


But isn't deathcore already under the Revolution banner already? You make it sound like deathcore isn't already something you can put in the Revolution playlist, when it seems like you can from what I read. I am interested in seeing the clan challenge proposals, as I think it's a super cool and educational (for lack of a better word) idea. I hope Ben's hiatus isn't for too long, it would be a shame if the idea was abandoned. I also agree that trancecore and trance metal are incredibly similar in sound, if not entirely indistinguishable. 


Hi Scarecrow. Very valid questions. When we originally created the Metal Academy website we had to decide on a reasonable configuration & wouldn't profess to be experts in every metal subgenre so we simply went with the most well informed position we could at the time. In saying that though, we're always looking for ways to improve the site & have made dozens of changes over time. I agree with you that in hindsight Melodic Metalcore should be under Metalcore & it's likely be something that we'll look to change in the future. Just bare in mind that every change we make to the database structure can create a considerable logistical challenge as we've already got tens of thousands of releases in play under the current structure. There's also a financial cost for us to make most changes so we tend to do them in batches in order to get the most bang for buck with our developer.

As for why there's not a trance metal clan challenge, that's because there are very few genuine trance metal releases of any note which makes it pretty irrelevant as a guide to a potential new clan member's understanding of The Revolution. In fact, I'm now of the opinion that Trance Metal probably doesn't belong in The Revolution & may not even warrant its own subgenre. That might be something we look at over time too.

Quoted Daniel

I understand that. If it's more about the logistics/cost behind it then yeah I don't see a reason to prioritize this change either.


I would be a little sad if trance metal was done away with because I like the genre. I know it's definitely smaller than a lot of the other genres here, but I feel like eliminating it entirely would leave some bands/albums without genres that truly describe their sound (Like, what would you call Blood Stain Child if not trance metal? Melodeath? That would feel slightly misleading). 

Quoted PrincetteScarecrow

Of course, deathcore already is in The Revolution, but if it has the death metal riffing, blast beats, and deep growls, would it fit well as part of death metal and The Horde? That would make sense, but it's already residing in just The Revolution, and it should probably stay as it is. Getting red of the trance genres just because there are so few releases in those genres would be awful because that's the best way to describe some of the bands of those two genres. Amaranthe's sound has elements of power metal and melodic death/metalcore combined with electronic/symphonic influences, but describing that as a concluding set of genres is misleading. Similarly, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas combine metalcore/post-hardcore with electronic/symphonic influences, but that's not how I would describe them. What if we at least categorize trance metal and trancecore as one genre? Call it "trance metal/core", and whether it ends up as a main genre or a subgenre, what matters is, we still have it. I'm glad you agree about how similar those two genres sound, Scarecrow.

January 09, 2022 08:37 AM

I wouldn't recommend that we add Deathcore to The Horde Andi. Most Death Metal fanatics have problems with Deathcore in my experience & the intention of the clans is to is to link subgenres that are likely to appeal to the same audience. I think it's fine residing only in The Revolution although I could be convinced that it's better as a main Genre rather than a subgenre of Metalcore.

On the Trance Metal topic, after putting together The Revolution playlists for a couple of years & religiously including a Trance Metal track I've become very much aware that it doesn't sit all that comfortably alongside the Metalcore subgenre set. I'm interested to get everyone's feedback on whether you think it would sit better in another clan &, if so, which one that might be. The Gateway perhaps? Even The Guardians given the similarities to Power Metal & Symphonic Metal? Thoughts? Where do you think Trance Metal belongs?

On the Trancecore topic, from my playlist programming experience it seems to me that it's more of a variation on Melodic  Metalcore than anything else. Am I wrong?


NOTE: Please bare in mind that all this talk is just hypothetical at this stage because it's a significant exercise to make changes like these.

January 09, 2022 09:43 AM

I wouldn't recommend that we add Deathcore to The Horde Andi. Most Death Metal fanatics have problems with Deathcore in my experience & the intention of the clans is to is to link subgenres that are likely to appeal to the same audience. I think it's fine residing only in The Revolution although I could be convinced that it's better as a main Genre rather than a subgenre of Metalcore.

On the Trance Metal topic, after putting together The Revolution playlists for a couple of years & religiously including a Trance Metal track I've become very much aware that it doesn't sit all that comfortably alongside the Metalcore subgenre set. I'm interested to get everyone's feedback on whether you think it would sit better in another clan &, if so, which one that might be. The Gateway perhaps? Even The Guardians given the similarities to Power Metal & Symphonic Metal? Thoughts? Where do you think Trance Metal belongs?

On the Trancecore topic, from my playlist programming experience it seems to me that it's more of a variation on Melodic  Metalcore than anything else. Am I wrong?


NOTE: Please bare in mind that all this talk is just hypothetical at this stage because it's a significant exercise to make changes like these.

Quoted Daniel

The deathcore thing is also hypothetical, and I'm comfortable with deathcore staying in just The Revolution, for myself and fans of each separate genre. If we do end up getting rid of trance metal and all bands of that genre go to other clans and genres, it would be quite a tough call, but here are a few examples: Amaranthe can move to the Guardians with the symphonic/power metal parts of the sound along with staying in The Revolution as melodic metalcore. Babymetal can stay in The Gateway as usual, but a few songs might be worth The Guardians, such as their collaboration with DragonForce, "Road of Resistance". Blood Stain Child would, of course, stay in The Horde as melodeath. Trancecore has always been a melodic metalcore subgenre here, so it's fine how it is.

January 13, 2022 04:31 PM
Maybe a suggestion returning to the whole Trance Metal thing; can we remove Trance Metal from the main Clan listing in that case? I think Scarecrow brings up a good original point since new people will look at The Revolution Clan banner, see Trance Metal listed, and wonder where all the Trance Metal stuff is. The tag itself should still stay on the site, just not be broadcasted as a main feature of The Revolution. 
January 13, 2022 11:25 PM

If we keep the trance metal tag but remove it from The Revolution, where would it go? Would it just be a genre's subgenre, or have its own clan? Do you have in mind what the fate of trance metal might be, Xephyr?

January 14, 2022 12:18 AM

Now that I've looked over the actual terminology, yes I think it makes more sense to have Trance Metal just be a subgenre instead of a main genre. It doesn't have to go anywhere, like how Funeral Doom isn't listed under The Fallen or Melodic Death Metal isn't listed under The Horde. To quote Daniel, "...There are very few genuine Trance Metal releases of any note...", making it more out of place when compared to the other main genres listed under each clan. 

January 14, 2022 01:13 AM


Now that I've looked over the actual terminology, yes I think it makes more sense to have Trance Metal just be a subgenre instead of a main genre. It doesn't have to go anywhere, like how Funeral Doom isn't listed under The Fallen or Melodic Death Metal isn't listed under The Horde. To quote Daniel, "...There are very few genuine Trance Metal releases of any note...", making it more out of place when compared to the other main genres listed under each clan. 

Quoted Xephyr

For clarity, Funeral Doom Metal & Melodic Death Metal are subgenres of our Doom Metal & Death Metal genres respectively & form a part of The Fallen & The Horde clans. The only subgenre tag we have that doesn't sit beneath a primary genre & isn't part of a clan is Non-Metal. Are you suggesting that there simply isn't an appropriate clan for Trance Metal? My knowledge of the subgenre is very limited so I'm very interested in the feedback of those that have more experience with the Trance Metal sound.

Ben
Ben
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
January 14, 2022 03:42 AM

I don't personally know the answer, but I will say I'm not keen to set the precedent of having a metal genre that isn't attached to a clan. That kind of seems against the Metal Academy way of being all inclusive.

There are so few releases tagged as Trance Metal, that it doesn't seem an overly important question to answer, but for the sake of discussion, here's a bit of analysis. I looked at the top 50 Trance Metal releases on RYM (that have a decent amount of ratings), and recorded what other genres were associated with each of them (either as primaries or secondaries). The following genres appeared more than 5 times...

  • Alternative Metal - 9 times
  • Industrial Metal - 10 times
  • Melodic Death Metal - 13 times
  • Melodic Metalcore - 16 times
  • Power Metal - 14 times
  • Symphonic Metal - 6 times

Looking at this data, it's really no surprise that we're having difficulty slotting Trance Metal into one of the clans.

What's particularly interesting to me is that rarely is Trance Metal the only primary genre for a release. This leads me to wonder whether Trance Metal is really being used like a descriptor, and perhaps shouldn't be a genre of its own. If we look at 4 of the major bands in the genre, they're actually heavily associated with completely different styles of metal (Amaranthe - Melodic Metalcore, Blood Stain Child (Melodic Death Metal), Metalite (Power Metal) and BABYMETAL (Alternative Metal). Do any of these bands sound at all similar? It's a genuine question, as I've only had experience with BABYMETAL while at birthday gatherings for Daniel's kids.

January 14, 2022 04:23 AM

I’ve already listed above the clans where some of those bands could go if we end up getting rid of trance metal, so they are quite different despite electro-trance elements being an essential part of their sound.

Amaranthe can move to the Guardians with the symphonic/power metal parts of the sound along with staying in The Revolution as melodic metalcore. Babymetal can stay in The Gateway as usual, but a few songs might be worth The Guardians, such as their collaboration with DragonForce, "Road of Resistance". Blood Stain Child would, of course, stay in The Horde as melodeath. Trancecore has always been a melodic metalcore subgenre here, so it's fine how it is.

Quoted shadowdoom9 (Andi)


January 14, 2022 05:21 AM

I see where I misunderstood, sorry for making this conversation go in circles there, on the same page now. To echo Andi, all 4 of those big Trance Metal bands sound pretty different, they all just add more electronics than normal to whatever their base genre is. 

Maybe a direct, helpful comparison would be between bands like Beast In Black and Delain's new output versus Amaranthe and Metalite. Beast In Black and Delain are not in The Revolution and are in The Guardians under Symphonic Metal and Power Metal despite having just as many electronic elements used in very similar ways compared to Amaranthe and Metalite. It feels needlessly confusing to have a genre tag that boils down to "X Main Genre + Electronic Elements" when that main genre can range from Power, to Symphonic, to Alternative, to Melodic Death Metal. 

Then again, is there anything wrong with adding these bands into The Revolution under Trance Metal if they have enough electronic elements? The worst part is that Daniel/Ben did too good of a job writing the clan descriptions, since "...join the strongest of all modern metal movements...it's time to rebel..." perfectly encapsulates the "newness" that these bands are trying to bring into other established genres, for better or worse. 

January 14, 2022 07:27 AM

Then again, is there anything wrong with adding these bands into The Revolution under Trance Metal if they have enough electronic elements? The worst part is that Daniel/Ben did too good of a job writing the clan descriptions, since "...join the strongest of all modern metal movements...it's time to rebel..." perfectly encapsulates the "newness" that these bands are trying to bring into other established genres, for better or worse. 

Quoted Xephyr

That is kind of a problem with including trance metal in The Revolution. While a good amount of metalcore lovers also enjoy a bit of trance metal, some might get confused about trance metal being in the same clan as metalcore. The Revolution's two superior genres, metalcore and melodic metalcore, have their roots from mixing metal with hardcore punk and lyrics of rebellion, and if trance metal bands like Amaranthe and Metalite have a electronic-infused sound that leans more towards symphonic/power metal than metalcore, that would cause quite an issue. Then again, Amaranthe often has some melodic metalcore going on, so it's a tough call.

You know what, trance metal is quite a hard genre to bring to a solid conclusive fate, so maybe we can run an experiment similar to the ones for trancecore and Nintendocore where we listen to a song from each of the prominent trance metal bands/releases to see if the genre can stay or just move those bands and releases to the closest-sounding genres/clans. How does that sound?

January 14, 2022 11:46 AM

Ok, I'll bite in a hypothetical capacity Andi.

Everyone, please give these tracks a listen & tell us a) if you think it warrants a subgenre of its own i.e. Trance Metal, b) if you think it should reside in The Revolution clan & c) if it would fit just as comfortably under another existing subgenre tag & if so which one.



January 14, 2022 12:06 PM

Here are my thoughts:

The Babymetal track certainly doesn't belong in The Revolution. To my ears it's closest to Symphonic Power Metal & would sit much more comfortably in The Guardians. I'm not sure it really warrants a tag like Trance Metal. Pop Metal is a probably more appropriate term for it in my opinion.

The Blood Stain Child track has actually opened my eyes a bit because it's actually much closer to genuine trance than I was expecting & I can definitely see why it's been labelled as trance metal. There's absolutely no way know it should reside in The Revolution. It should definitely be in The Guardians as it's once again closest to Symphonic Power Metal.

The Amaranthe track is pretty close to trance too actually. I may have to take back my statement on trance metal not being a thing if these couple of tracks are anything to go by. It definitely belongs in The Guardians too & has absolutely fuck-all to do with The Revolution.

Based on these three tracks I think we've got it badly wrong when we allocated Trance Metal to The Revolution. On this evidence I'd recommend that it remains as a tag on the site but I think it should sit in The Guardians as a primary genre or a subgenre of Power Metal.

January 15, 2022 01:19 AM

Here are my thoughts:

Babymetal's track has a bit of speedy trancecore instrumentation similar to Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, but the vocals are mostly anime-girl singing, and the only screams I hear are in the background during the breakdown. It's not as power metal as "Road of Resistance", but it's certainly the closest to dance-pop-infused symphonic power metal, so this track belongs to The Guardians.

Blood Stain Child is known for mixing melodeath with genuine trance. However, like the Babymetal track, this one has nothing to do with melodeath or metalcore and is closer to trance-y symphonic power metal, so it belongs to The Guardians. Needless to say, I enjoy this a lot and might make an exception to my quarantine from death metal to check out the rest of their discography as well.

Amaranthe, I know the most of, and look, even though this is one of my favorite tracks, I don't think this is the best example of their sound because, yes, it's once again a symphonic power metal track with trance elements that belongs to The Guardians, but that's not what their sound is based on. Most of their other songs I believe have both symphonic/power metal and melodic metalcore/trancecore in their sound that could easily fit well in both The Guardians and The Revolution. Here's a better example to check out (after those other 3 tracks, of course):

Anyway, based on the 3 tracks, yeah, I agree that trance metal is better off in The Guardians as a power metal subgenre. It just doesn't fit right in The Revolution!

January 15, 2022 04:13 AM

In my opinion Trance Metal fits much better in The Gateway because Alternative Metal is usually what's given as a catch-all to "Pop Metal," which is what Trance Metal is usually going for. I get the comparisons to Symphonic and Power Metal, as especially the Japanese strain of Trance Metal is heavily influenced by the styles, but I don't think Trance Metal at all fits aesthetically with The Guardians (not that I'm a kvltist or anything, but the name of the clan implies a sound closer to "original" Heavy Metal, and Trance Metal is anything but). Babymetal should for sure be in The Gateway as they are certainly Alternative Metal even when not doing Trance Metal. Just my two cents though.

January 16, 2022 01:50 AM


In my opinion Trance Metal fits much better in The Gateway because Alternative Metal is usually what's given as a catch-all to "Pop Metal," which is what Trance Metal is usually going for. I get the comparisons to Symphonic and Power Metal, as especially the Japanese strain of Trance Metal is heavily influenced by the styles, but I don't think Trance Metal at all fits aesthetically with The Guardians (not that I'm a kvltist or anything, but the name of the clan implies a sound closer to "original" Heavy Metal, and Trance Metal is anything but). Babymetal should for sure be in The Gateway as they are certainly Alternative Metal even when not doing Trance Metal. Just my two cents though.

Quoted SilentScream213

Interesting perspective. Do you have some examples of some Pop Metal records that have been lumped into The Gateway purely as a catch-all rather than because they possess an alternative inspired sound? It's not really my area of expertise so I'm interested to see exactly what you're talking about.

From what I'm hearing above, there is a pure Trance Metal sound but it seems that most major artists that play with it tend to blend it with another subgenre & that's probably why we've fallen into the trap of lumping them in with The Revolution which in hindsight seems to be a bit misguided. The Metal Academy database can cater for records with two major components pretty nicely though as releases can reside in two clans so I think what's important is to get the pure Trance Metal sound into the most suitable clan & from what I've heard that seems to be The Guardians. It's not really about any perceived aesthetic related to the clan title. It's about what audience is most likely to embrace that particular subgenre & I can't see that being fans of Alice In Chains, Korn, Primus or Rage Against The Machine. I see it being fans of the more clean, epic & melodic (not to mention more than a little cheesy) symphonic metal &/or power metal sound. I could be wrong as my experience is pretty limited but that's my two cents. Perhaps you have some further examples that'll see me leaning back towards The Gateway?

On the Babymetal topic, I actually don't think they sit too comfortably under the Trance Metal tag to be honest. They tend to play with several different genres like Nu Metal, Heavy Metal, Power Metal, Death Metal, etc. but the electronic component isn't always prevalent & isn't always reminiscent of Trance music. Oh... & their albums are already in The Gateway by the way.

January 16, 2022 02:43 AM

In my opinion Trance Metal fits much better in The Gateway because Alternative Metal is usually what's given as a catch-all to "Pop Metal," which is what Trance Metal is usually going for. I get the comparisons to Symphonic and Power Metal, as especially the Japanese strain of Trance Metal is heavily influenced by the styles, but I don't think Trance Metal at all fits aesthetically with The Guardians (not that I'm a kvltist or anything, but the name of the clan implies a sound closer to "original" Heavy Metal, and Trance Metal is anything but). Babymetal should for sure be in The Gateway as they are certainly Alternative Metal even when not doing Trance Metal. Just my two cents though.

Quoted SilentScream213

Interesting perspective. Do you have some examples of some Pop Metal records that have been lumped into The Gateway purely as a catch-all rather than because they possess an alternative inspired sound? It's not really my area of expertise so I'm interested to see exactly what you're talking about.

Quoted Daniel

Coldrain has a good example of a more poppy alt-metalcore sound.

January 19, 2022 01:46 AM



In my opinion Trance Metal fits much better in The Gateway because Alternative Metal is usually what's given as a catch-all to "Pop Metal," which is what Trance Metal is usually going for. I get the comparisons to Symphonic and Power Metal, as especially the Japanese strain of Trance Metal is heavily influenced by the styles, but I don't think Trance Metal at all fits aesthetically with The Guardians (not that I'm a kvltist or anything, but the name of the clan implies a sound closer to "original" Heavy Metal, and Trance Metal is anything but). Babymetal should for sure be in The Gateway as they are certainly Alternative Metal even when not doing Trance Metal. Just my two cents though.

Quoted SilentScream213

Interesting perspective. Do you have some examples of some Pop Metal records that have been lumped into The Gateway purely as a catch-all rather than because they possess an alternative inspired sound? 

Quoted Daniel

I'm not talking about this site in particular, and I still haven't gone through much of whatever is in The Gateway (I've been adding ratings chronologically and am in 1993 right now) but Alternative Metal, in most cases, is given to what some people call "Modern Metal" or "Pop Metal." Examples include Lacuna Coil, (new) In Flames, Babymetal, Disturbed, Linkin Park, Stone Sour, etc... and basically all the bands that get excluded from Metal Archives for being "not metal enough." You know, the stuff that has really clean production, usually synths/keys, anthemic choruses, or just simple mainstream appeal. It's not so much that they don't contain an alternative inspired sound, it's more so... I think, sounding poppy in metal IS alternative. It goes against what metal is. These bands also make a great Gateway into metal.  Alternative Metal is a vaaaast tag with so much different sounding stuff in it, but most anything people tend to call "pop metal" is usually thrown in there. I feel like a good amount of Trance Metal is an extension of this, and yes, there is a lot of Power Metal and Symphonic metal that comfortably fit those pop metal traits too, with hi-fi production, catchy choruses and cheese. However, the most extreme cases of these genres in my opinion would deserve an Alt Metal tag, at least until there is a different genre to take the place of modern poppy metal. 
Not that I have any stake in this (I'm not in either clan) just figured I'd share my opinion.

January 19, 2022 07:11 AM

Ok, I get where you're coming from. I think I might have a listen to a few more examples of Trance Metal & see how they feel with that in mind. Let's see how I go with these three:


This one seems to sit somewhere between melodic death metal & symphonic power metal. It wouldn't fit perfectly into The Gateway OR The Guardians but it's definitely closer to the Guardians' Power Metal sound. It's certainly nothing to do with The Gateway or The Revolution in my opinion.


This one is pretty much a poppier version of melodic metalcore with some trancey elements thrown in for good measure. I'd suggest that it'd probably fit well enough under the Trancecore banner rather than the Trance Metal one.


This one isn't really very synth-driven so I'd suggest it shouldn't really qualify for Trance Metal status. I can see why it would fit into Alternative Metal but it's probably just as much a Heavy Metal song. There's not any Power Metal or Symphonic Metal here.

Hhhmmm... I think I'm still sitting closer to thinking that Trance Metal should be a genre of The Guardians & can have multiple tags added to cater for additional elements when required. It's not a very well defined subgenre though in my opinion & I think we'd probably all be better served by not separating these releases from the more traditional subgenres that they draw their basic building blocks from.

January 19, 2022 01:35 PM

Here are my thoughts:

That Equilibrium track... UGH, it's that album where they switched from their epic melodeath/symphonic/folk metal roots to this sh*t! This one seems closer to those roots though. I say it's symphonic power metal with the death growls happening as frequently as some of Epica's greatest hits, so it has some Guardians potential.

Passcode sounds closer to trancecore in the same vein as Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, though with a Babymetal-inspired Japanese girl lineup. This can definitely stay in The Revolution, but under the trancecore banner.

DOLL$BOXX, yet another Japanese female band with the trance metal label. In my opinion, this sounds like the synth-powered alt-power metal sound that Machine Supremacy has, though not as 8-bitty, and with more emphasis on the "alt-" and a bit of screaming. The Gateway it is for this track, then.

So, if we include the tracks from the previous round, including the bonus Amaranthe track I suggested, my voting points are: The Guardians - 4, The Revolution - 2, The Gateway - 1. It is most likely for trance metal to be suited nicely in The Guardians as a power metal genre, despite slight potential in The Revolution. Let's see what the rest thinks first.