SilentScream213's Forum Replies

Crunkcore

No hate, but I'm am very curious to hear you explain what you like about this haha

I was hoping someone would say that.

I normally really hate crunkcore.  This particular album, however, gave me a feeling that was completely alien to the nearly 1000 hip hop albums I've explored, especially outside crunkcore.  It used industrial influences, noisy production during screams and ambiance to create a feeling that I can only describe as this: the many emotions of a robot seriously questioning if it has a soul.  That was some accidental brilliance for this guy.  I mean, he NORMALLY does better crunkcore than everyone else, but it's usually just OK.

Totally respect that. Crunkcore is among my least favorite genres of all time, but I'd be totally open to hearing an album in the genre that is actually enjoyable. Maybe I'll give it a shot just for fun.

Crunkcore

No hate, but I'm am very curious to hear you explain what you like about this haha

I totally agree with Rexorcist. I listened to that album last year, thinking "Damn this really isn't metal enough for primary."

Why would a discord of just Metal Academy be toxic? Everyone here seems pretty chill and reasonable... it'd only be toxic if you make it toxic. If a Discord got started I'd join, I'm not interested in live chats, but it'd certainly be easier to have casual conversations.

As for site functions... two things I'd be interested in would be an actual weighting system to releases (more ratings=more weight, even if it was only a small amount. This could even be a toggle feature, if the community is split about it) and the ability to rate alternate album covers, such as on re-releases or odd examples where the album kinda has two official artworks (Like God Hates Us All does for censorship reasons).

She's So Heavy by The Beatles. It's not full-on Trad Doom proper, but undeniably has very strong elements of what started the genre.

Thanks, SS. I am only familiar with the first Angel Dust album, Into the Dark Past, but I really enjoyed it, so I will definitely check those two out. Your description of Novembre has intrigued me enough to guarantee them a listen too, but I will probably pass on the neoclassical one.

Edit: I have given Border of Reality a couple of listens whilst doing some work outside this morning and it would be a lie to say that this is my usual fare, but you know what, I actually really enjoyed it. "When I Die" is a prog metal classic and would make the album worthwhile for that alone, but there was plenty more to keep me entertained. The cover of Rainbow's Spotlight Kid is tons better than the original, for example. So nice one, SilentScream, I'm gonna call this one a winner and you are no longer the lone rater.

Hey thanks for checking em out! Sorry for the super late reply, but I'm glad you liked it. I agree, "When I Die" is one of my absolute favorites by them. Very different than their Thrash Metal days, but no less good imo.

For the albums mentioned in the thread that seem to intrigue me enough to check out later, I might be up to giving the Novembre and The Amenta releases some spins. Cheers guys!

Thanks again, guys! I enjoy a lot of both the beautiful progressive gothic metal of Novembre and the brutal industrial death metal of The Amenta, and I'm up to checking out more from those bands.

Really glad someone else could appreciate this Novembre album, thanks Andi! I feel it's not the typical Gothic Doom most metalheads go for, but it's so good in it's own way. 

Great idea for a topic. I'll list some of my highest rated with only one rating (and the genre so one could pick what interests them).

Angel Dust - To Dust You Will Decay (1988) and Border of Reality (1998): Pre and post break up/reunion albums. To Dust You Will Decay is more of an old school Speed Metal record with touches of Thrash and Power Metal, and Border of Reality saw them fully embrace melodic Progressive Power Metal. However, both albums have one thing in common: incredibly memorable hooks, both from the fantastic guitar leads, to the anthemic vocals, and even the sparse but effective keys. This band never misses, and they deserve more attention.

Novembre - Arte Novecento (1996): Gothic Progressive Doom. It's not perfect; the vocals are rough in spots, and the songwriting isn't anything spectacular, but there's just something about this band... They really craft some fantastic moods with these songs. This album is perfect for settling into a cold, melancholic sit-in on a rainy day. Catchy, memorable, emotional, but also quite layered and takes many listens to really appreciate.

Concerto Moon - From Father to Son (1998): Want Yngwie Malmsteen, but without the ego and glam cheese? These guys do Neoclassical Metal better than the founding father ever did. Great thing about them is quality is not just in the solos, but astoundingly strong riffs as well as energetic rhythm section. Most of their material is stellar but this album is my favorite. Fantastic melodies, but old school production and edge. 

Hi Ben, please add Mourning Sun from Chile. Pretty underground band at the moment, just dropped a new album and I think it's phenomenal. 

I'll always use the original cover for any release I'm adding to the site. While I understand your opinion, I refuse to censor the artwork here at Metal Academy.

Thanks for this, censoring of any art is awful. I mean, especially in metal, you start censoring a few covers, it's a slippery slope before there are hundreds of extreme metal covers that could be censored. Same goes for the musical content within. 

Sorry to hear about that Daniel. I know it can be hard in a period of uncertainty like this, but I hope you give yourself some time to recuperate mentally. Totally okay to take a break from everything and grieve a bit when this sort of thing happens. But keep your head up in the end; it sounds like the situation was much more telling about your workplace than you as a person. Don't let some poor management decision color how you view and value yourself. 

Brilliantly personal review Daniel. This album is a bit hit or miss for me, but I totally understand how it could be special for anyone. Though I am guilty of finding Sleepless to be the best song ;)

Also, LOVE seeing Mar de Grises in your top 10 Death Doom list. Most underrated band... maybe ever. 

Lots of Slowcore. I find the less folky end of the genre to basically be Doom Rock. Wider Than the Sky by 40 Watt Sun is a great example, as are Low's first few albums. Codeine are this taken to the extreme, being incredibly heavy for a non-metal band. 

Dark/Depressive/Atmospheric Alternative Rock Albums like Alternative 4 by Anathema, or some mid-career Katatonia (Last Fair Deal Gone Down most of all) .

Some of the darker, more depressive Shoegaze bands creep into this territory occasionally (Nowehre by Ride, or My Bloody Valentine or Slowdive at their most depressive) 

Due to the clan-based approach of this site, I think that's a good choice. Fully supported.

This is a very interesting topic Sonny, and while I don't have the history and experience that you've got, I figure I'll add in my own two cents.

Perhaps one of the differences is the source of money. In today's day and age, we very, very rarely have mega-big arena selling metal bands, with most of them being decades old veterans of the genre who already established their reputation. New bands just don't pop up and achieve that same status that they used to. I think a big part of this is that, well, the economy globally is a mess, and therefore, even big bands usually need side jobs to make ends meet. They can't survive off touring, many never even get to do big tours at all. The revenue is now coming from streaming - a digital world that was nonexistent back in the day.

So, who are the majority of new metal fans?

It's usually not working class fellows who are off to concerts and buying some records at the shop. It's people surfing and streaming on the internet, it's people in forums and on music websites like this and RYM. Technology in general, while generally accessible to everyone these days, is still to me more of an upper-middle class thing as opposed to lower class. Nobody finds bands through word of mouth or picking up a sick looking record of a band you hadn't heard of anymore; they just search the internet, hear stuff on personalized radio streaming channels, get recommended stuff automatically by sites like Youtube, etc. And furthermore - for an up and coming band, getting big on the internet is their best bet to have any success; so they will appeal to that demographic.

And on the subject of how you said "caveman style" traditional metal just isn't good enough anymore; more than anything, I think this is a product of time and over-saturation of the music industry. With decades of metal behind us, and tens of thousands of metal records coming out every year, how in the world is anyone supposed to stand out? Sure, some classic 80's style Thrash Metal is good enough for me. I could listen to 100 bands that just sound like variations on Slayer. But they aren't going to get anywhere. Unless the band does something new, unique, or has a "gimmick" of sorts, it's impossible for them to stand out amongst the vast amount of music that has already been created, and that still continues to be pumped out and historically unprecedented speeds. It's not fair, and I don't like that fact, but I think it just is what it is. Not so much that Metal or it's culture has changed in itself, just that the world has changed, as it continues to do, and Metal, just like any style of music, will have to adapt to the changes in the world in order to stay relevant. 

To me Speed belongs in the guardians, and I think it should be a case by case basis on certain albums getting both speed and thrash and sitting in both clans (such as Angel Dust's debut). I also feel a lot of heavier Speed Metal albums are simpy labeled incorrectly, such as calling Whiplash's debut Speed Metal when to me it is entirely Thrash. Speed Metal only really serves a purpose when it is correctly applied to faster and slightly heavier Heavy Metal, because otherwise it doesn't really have an identity if it's so interchangeable with Thrash.

I agree Lustre is actually much closer to New Age than Ambient. But I also think it's still Atmospheric Black Metal. It does have guitar, drums, and black metal shrieks. Those things are all just pushed back in the mix. It's in no way purely Black Metal, but I'd say Atmospheric Black Metal + New Age with influences of Ambient and Black Ambient. Since those genres aren't represented on this site it looks a little odd getting labeled as just Black Metal, BUT it still is Atmospheric Black Metal and should remain in that clan.

...Wow. Shocking. Never expected you to actually do it. You have my respect and applause. Gonna be fun as hell to rate those album covers eventually lol

I wouldn't consider every album here Speed Metal (Slayer and Whiplash are pure Thrash to me) but for simplicity sake I included everything that falls under that umbrella, especially because it's one of the harder to define genres. Mine is likewise exclusively 80's albums, not purposefully but I guess that's when the genre really peaked.

1. Slayer - Show No Mercy (1983)

2. Paradox - Heresy (1989)

3. Angel Dust - Into the Dark Past (1986)

4. Angel Dust - To Dust You Will Decay (1988)

5. Helstar - Noseferatu (1989)

6. Blind Guardian - Battlions of Fear (1988)

7. Whiplash - Power and Pain (1986)

8. Killers - Résistances (1989)

9. X Japan - Blue Blood (1989)

10. Paradox - Product of Imagination (1987)

Iron Attack! from Japan have (listed on RYM) 59 full length albums, none breaching 50 ratings (as of now). I have heard almost 40 of them! And they are all strong, solid pieces of Neoclassical Power Metal. Some have J-Pop style vocals while others are purely instrumental. I don't expect you to add all of these to Metal Academy... but I wouldn't be complaining!

Messiah aren't everyone's cup of tea but I feel they deserve a lot more credit than they get. They were waay ahead of their time, on their second album they were writing borderline melodic death and melodic black metal years before the genres existed.

As someone who continues to use RYM heavily, I totally agree with all that has been said. A lot of these issues are a product of more recent years - the website gained popularity with younger users within the past few years and grew exponentially, but the new userbase is almost entirely stemming from a younger (and American) crowd. As people have said there's a massive bias for hip hop, certain kinds of pop and and electronic due to the popularity of these genres with the younger American generation. Likewise metal is relatively shunned, with the exception of hyper progressive technical avant-garde stuff. There have been very, very few highly rated metal releases in the past 10 years - which is not because metal has gotten worse, but because whenever the current userbase sees it pop up on the charts, they vote it down. 

Back in the day, when RYM was more niche, it didn't have this problem so much. As it becomes more mainstream it understandably follows the trends of mainstream music and new generations of people. I still think RYM is great for what it is, and remains the best music cataloging and rating site out there, but sites like this that limit the catalog to just metal music are a much better representation of what actual metalheads like. This also allows for much deeper and personal discussion as we are having here... RYM, with its comment boxes and what not, is so very prone to toxicity, memes and trolling.

On the topic of remaining unbiased against certain genres of metal... that's another thing I love about this site. It has fostered that open mindedness that both the metal community and the music enthusiast community sometimes lack. 

In my opinion Trance Metal fits much better in The Gateway because Alternative Metal is usually what's given as a catch-all to "Pop Metal," which is what Trance Metal is usually going for. I get the comparisons to Symphonic and Power Metal, as especially the Japanese strain of Trance Metal is heavily influenced by the styles, but I don't think Trance Metal at all fits aesthetically with The Guardians (not that I'm a kvltist or anything, but the name of the clan implies a sound closer to "original" Heavy Metal, and Trance Metal is anything but). Babymetal should for sure be in The Gateway as they are certainly Alternative Metal even when not doing Trance Metal. Just my two cents though.

Interesting perspective. Do you have some examples of some Pop Metal records that have been lumped into The Gateway purely as a catch-all rather than because they possess an alternative inspired sound? 

I'm not talking about this site in particular, and I still haven't gone through much of whatever is in The Gateway (I've been adding ratings chronologically and am in 1993 right now) but Alternative Metal, in most cases, is given to what some people call "Modern Metal" or "Pop Metal." Examples include Lacuna Coil, (new) In Flames, Babymetal, Disturbed, Linkin Park, Stone Sour, etc... and basically all the bands that get excluded from Metal Archives for being "not metal enough." You know, the stuff that has really clean production, usually synths/keys, anthemic choruses, or just simple mainstream appeal. It's not so much that they don't contain an alternative inspired sound, it's more so... I think, sounding poppy in metal IS alternative. It goes against what metal is. These bands also make a great Gateway into metal.  Alternative Metal is a vaaaast tag with so much different sounding stuff in it, but most anything people tend to call "pop metal" is usually thrown in there. I feel like a good amount of Trance Metal is an extension of this, and yes, there is a lot of Power Metal and Symphonic metal that comfortably fit those pop metal traits too, with hi-fi production, catchy choruses and cheese. However, the most extreme cases of these genres in my opinion would deserve an Alt Metal tag, at least until there is a different genre to take the place of modern poppy metal. 
Not that I have any stake in this (I'm not in either clan) just figured I'd share my opinion.

In my opinion Trance Metal fits much better in The Gateway because Alternative Metal is usually what's given as a catch-all to "Pop Metal," which is what Trance Metal is usually going for. I get the comparisons to Symphonic and Power Metal, as especially the Japanese strain of Trance Metal is heavily influenced by the styles, but I don't think Trance Metal at all fits aesthetically with The Guardians (not that I'm a kvltist or anything, but the name of the clan implies a sound closer to "original" Heavy Metal, and Trance Metal is anything but). Babymetal should for sure be in The Gateway as they are certainly Alternative Metal even when not doing Trance Metal. Just my two cents though.

To me, more than anything, extreme metal requires harsh vocals. On top of that, common traits are downtuned guitars with heavier distortion and double bass/blast beat drumming. I think certain genres are almost always extreme metal (Death, Black, Grindcore) and others have bands that are extreme, and some that aren't (Thrash, Doom). I wouldn't call Metallica, Anthrax, or Megadeth extreme metal, but I would call Slayer, Sepultura, and Demolition Hammer extreme metal. The biggest difference is in the vocal deliveries and how often they employ double bass drumming and tremolo picking at high BPMs.

But of course, Funeral Doom is still extreme metal and doesn't often have these fast qualities, so that leaves us with the vocal delivery being the one thing tying them all together. Harsh vocals = extreme metal for me, because it is the most identifiable and forefront trait that will immediately turn a very large group of people away from the music. It is the most likely trait to be a problem for casual music listeners, making the music too "extreme" for mainstream audiences. 

When you think of mainstream appeal, what seems more likely to succeed; a Thrash Metal song with melodic vocals and catchy choruses, or a Pop song with death growls all the way through? Vocal style is the prominent factor in determining what is or isn't too extreme to be considered "normal."

Here's mine, limited to one per artist

1. Veiled in Scarlet - Atonement (2018)

2. In Flames - Come Clarity (2006)

3. Insomnium - Above the Weeping World (2006)

4. Dark Tranquillity - Construct (2013)

5. Before the Dawn - Rise of the Phoenix (2012)

6. Edge of Sanity - Crimson (1996)

7. Carcass - Heartwork (1993)

8. Wintersun - Wintersun (2004)

9. Dark Lunacy - The Diarist (2006)

10. Be'Lakor - Coherence (2021)

Very cool!

I'm not suggesting the website change to fit this, just throwing it out as a thought. But it could be interesting to make two distinct groups of Genres and then Styles of said genre 

Example being

Genres

• Alternative
• Black
• Death
• Doom
• Drone
• Grind
• Groove
• Heavy
• Industrial
• Metalcore
• Post
• Power
• Sludge
• Stoner
• Thrash
• Trance

Styles

• Avant-Garde
• Atmospheric
• Brutal
• Crossover
• Cyber
• Depressive
• Epic
• Folk
• Gaze
• Gothic
• Melodic
• Neoclassical
• Progressive
• Symphonic
• Technical
• Traditional

Some of the traditional meanings could be altered, for example "Brutal" could simply refer to a very heavy variant of the genre, "Crossover" any genre with significant hardcore punk influence, "Cyber" with significant electronics etc. I think it'd be neat, again not pushing for site change just wanted to discuss.

They definitely need to be genres. I just think the names are misleading. I believe descriptive names should be saved for Subgenres. For example, Death Metal is a top level genre, then it has more descriptive subgenres, such as Melodic Death Metal, Brutal Death Metal and Technical Death Metal. This is how genres should be IMO.

Terms like Symphonic, Melodic, Brutal, Technical, Progressive, Depressive, Atmospheric should be saved for subgenres, otherwise you run the risk of people using them incorrectly. Having descriptive genre names results in a band like Fleshgod Apocalypse getting linked to Symphonic Metal, and absolutely EVERYTHING that has progressive qualities being linked to Progressive Metal.

Take a look at the top 30 or so albums for Progressive Metal on RYM. Do the likes of Tool, Opeth, Mastodon, Gojira, Atheist, Queensryche, Maudlin of the Well, Voivod, Dream Theater, Enslaved and Nevermore actually sound at all similar? Is there any reason for a fan of Dream Theater to assume that they would enjoy Atheist? Is there any real reason to assume that a huge fan of Voivod would totally dig Maudlin of the Well too? I see Orphaned Land has Progressive Metal as its primary genre too. Is it progressive? Yeah, sure. Does it sound like Queensryche?

Gothic Metal is another example. Having such a descriptive name results in a whole heap of black metal bands like Cradle of Filth getting dumped into that genre. There are also heaps of bands that are definitely what we consider to be Gothic Metal that have absolutely nothing to do with gothic in its literal sense (The Gathering and Lacuna Coil come to mind). It's confusing, so no wonder people get it wrong.

Note that this is all a theoretical conversation. I'm not suggesting we get rid of any of these genres or even that we should change them to something else. I just wish they were different. Imagine a world where there are between 10 to 20 non-descriptive metal genres that are used to clump together releases that actually "sound" somewhat similar, rather than merely having the same theme or some musical element like being progressive or contain symphonic instrumentation. Genres would be so much more useful then, allowing people to easily discover music that's actually similar in style to something else they've enjoyed.

Yeah, I actually totally agree with this. Gothic Metal is especially hard to pin down, especially if you tried to think of a band that plays pure Gothic Metal. Most either seem to be a strain of Gothic Doom or Gothic Alternative, and a lot of bands that get tagged as pure Gothic could quite easily fit into another genre, at least in my experience. 

Progressive metal is a tricky one, because you can have Progressive _______ Metal and put absolutely any parent genre there. But there are definitely bands that play a purer strain that sounds like heavy metallic Prog Rock as opposed to a different kind of metal with progressive elements. 

Not sure if Metal Academy is gonna be the site to revolutionize how Metal genres work but I'd be all here for it if that were the case haha.

Just doing a top 5

5. My Dying Bride - The Angel and the Dark River (1995)

4. Ars Onirica - I: Cold (2019)

3. Anathema - Eternity (1996)

2. 40 Watt Sun - The Inside Room (2011)

1. Swallow the Sun - When a Shadow is Forced Into the Light (2019)

Sorted. Veiled in Scarlet 

Thanks Ben! They're a fantastic melodeath band from Japan with influences of power metal and symphonic metal, I recommend them to fans of the more melodic side of the genre.

Limited to one release per artist for me

1. Veiled in Scarlet - Atonement (2018)

2. Morbid Angel - Altars of Madness (1989)

3. In Flames - Come Clarity (2006)

4. Insomnium - Above the Weeping World (2006)

5. Death - Spiritual Healing (1990)

6. Septicflesh - Codex Omega (2017)

7. Vader - Revelations (2002)

8. Dismembered - Like an Ever Flowing Stream (1991)

9. Entombed - Clandestine (1991)

10. Possessed - Revelations of Oblivion (2019)

I'm gonna give an honorable mention to Still Life by Opeth because I still consider it death metal but I know many don't so I'll keep it off the list.

Definitely Metalcore (Trancecore). What else would you call that style of music? You could debate whether Metalcore is real metal or not (Metal Archives would probably tell you it isn't), but those songs are definitely a style of Metalcore, so as long as Metalcore is an accepted style of metal on this site, those bands are metal.

I don't really have a preference over whether you want to lump it with Melodic Metalcore or Trance Metal. Technically this is a style of Metalcore which Trance Metal is really not, but at the same time, this style of music would probably fit the scene and appeal to fans of Trance Metal more than Metalcore fans. Depends how technical with the subgenres you want to be I guess.

Is anyone else fascinated by bands that have craploads of albums, despite no-one appearing to care about them, let alone think they're actually good? 

This sounds so mean, hahaha.

Yeah, I find bands like this interesting. In my experience, when I listen to stuff like this, they usually aren't much worse than big names. They're usually just bands doing stuff that someone else already did better 10 years prior. But hey, if you like the genre/style, it means you've just discovered a nice collection of albums to dig through. I'm not the kind of guy who needs artists to do something innovative or unique to enjoy them so I can have a great time with C list stuff like this. I think especially when the artists come from countries where the music market isn't as competitive, it might be easier to get on a label and get your albums put in local shops/online, and then no one outside that circle will ever find them.

* Would a significant percentage of people that really like Doom Metal NOT like what we're calling Epic Doom Metal? I don't think the answer is yes, particularly if you're going to throw bands like Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus and Solstice into the mix. To me they epitomise what Doom Metal is.

I think Trad Doom and Epic Doom have quite a different sound from true/modern Doom, and I will say that even though Doom (including Death Doom and Funeral Doom) is my favorite collection of metal subgenres, Trad Doom tends to bore me to tears, and Epic doesn't fare much better. There's a huge difference in the style of music - Trad and Epic Doom are focused on groovy riffs that happen to be slow, occasionally being mournful but just as often not, and true Doom, Death Doom and Funeral Doom utilize a slow speed to emphasize a sense of despair or melancholy, focusing on mood and atmosphere, always carrying a negative tone to them. The purpose of the music is totally different. I don't much enjoy slow Heavy Metal - I enjoy dark, moody, atmospheric music.

In the end, I don't care about adding more subgenres, they really don't matter to me. But Trad Doom is very different from modern Doom, and Epic Doom is definitely Trad Doom, though I do believe crossover with Epic into True is more common that in pure Trad (such as Solitude Aeturnus, who tend to have some quite melodic, melancholic Epic Doom).

I don't consider these albums poor, but certainly on the weak end of metal at least, and these tracks stand out especially amidst the surrounding material.

Born Again - Born Again, Black Sabbath

Run of the Mill - Rocka Rola, Judas Priest

Until it Sleeps, The Outlaw Torn - Load, Metallica

Fixxxer - Reload, Metallica

Sweet Amber, All Within My Hands - St. Anger, Metallica

Over and Out - Power Metal, Pantera

Ostia - Dante XXI, Sepultura

Sinister Soldiers is a good example, but I would have picked the track Last Good-Bye!

I love Vol. 3 the Subliminal Verses, but I'll at least appreciate that you picked the best songs on the album as your faves. 

4. "Divine Intervention" is a better record than "Hell Awaits" which is the weakest of Slayer's classic period releases.

Divine Intervention is an AMAZING record that just hit at the wrong time. Changing lineup, slightly different sound and production issues mean it will always be marred... but DI is seriously Slayer at their most technical, the songwriting is probably their best as well. The riffs are less flashy but really, really dark, it's truly a cold album with some very well written sinister lyrics that aren't comic book evil at all. Focused more on real life, real evil. And the solos on that record are easily their best ever, seemed like the only time they put thought into them and went for something that served the particular song as opposed to just... you know, doing what they normally do. Tom's voice is also insane there, probably the most range on a single Slayer album between what he does with it. 

For Trad Doom - take a band like Reverend Bizzare. Despite being modern, they play Trad Doom, because they are specifically going for a homage of 80's Doom trends and adopt that sound. Sample song - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RURHvusfJ7M&list=PLymNFxwBo3tjGwI0JPvjMu6Yl0TwoSL-f&index=1 . Here, even the tone of the guitar mimics the muddy sound of 80's Doom. The riffs are slow but groovy, the vocals are kinda just chilled out, the production is very basic. They do not focus on mood or atmosphere, but rather simple and catchy riffs at a slow tempo, at times sounding a bit negative, but nothing really "sad" or "depressive." subject matter tends to be occult, religious, myth, etc.

Candlemass also has these traits, except rather than chill vocals, they aim for highly intense, almost operatic singing. Epic doom tends to take this sound and just make it "bigger" if that makes sense. Sure Candlemass have some sombre songs, but nothing they've done is really emotionally evocative in comparison to more modern Doom. They don't spend much time creating atmospheres or soundscapes, they just play a classic rock setup with some extra keys and groove. It's just Trad Doom that's more epic.

Contrast that with this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCdoXtp7qsI . The goal of this style of Doom is to create a sad, evocative  atmosphere. The vocals sound pained, the lyrics are introspective and pessimistic. The band is not grooving here, they're not focused on creating super memorable riffs, they're focused on building a soundscape that sounds melancholic and depressive. It sounds vastly different to both Reverend Bizzare and Candlemass. This is what I consider true Doom. Trad Doom was using the slow style Sabbath had and kinda just running with it to further extremes. THIS style of Doom (as well as Death Doom and Funeral Doom) embraced the slow, minimalistic songwriting of 80's Doom but instead of playing it like straightforward rock music, took a more post-rock approach and used it to foster and craft an atmosphere and aesthetic. There's a reason Doom changed so much after the 80's ended - because using it in this way worked really well! Turns out slow, heavy music is pretty much a perfect place to breed sorrow, and thus Doom as we know it is a lot different than Traditional Doom which was just slow heavy metal, and Epic Doom, which was just epic slow heavy metal.

 if we were to go with US power metal as a subgenre of heavy metal then a Japanese band that had the US power metal sound would presumably be excluded from the same subgenre as the US bands. That doesn't make any sense to me. Perhaps if this is a unique sound then a new subgenre label is a better way to go?

I have seen this as an issue as well, I disagree with this mindset but I find it to be a big problem. I have listened to Japanese bands, Euro bands, etc that sound like USPM and I have no trouble giving them the label, but I'd be totally fine with changing the name so it doesn't sound like only US bands can have it. 

Unfortunately I'm no expert on modern USPM either! Which is why I suggested someone from the Guardians clan give their two cents. However, a quick use of the RYM charts pulls plenty of releases from the past two decades (unlike the NWOBH "genre", which is almost exclusively used pre 90's) which shows modern bands are still receiving the label at a steady rate. In fact, almost a third of USPM releases on RYM are post-2000. 

Musically, USPM in my experience employs more double bass, more galloping, tremolo picking and palm muting, and more keys/piano than traditional heavy metal. This usually makes it sound quite a bit heavier and faster than pure HM, and much more rhythmic. Thematically it tends to play on fantasy (including sci-fi), history (including medieval/mythology) , and in general more "intellectual/nerdy" material than heavy metal. It often aims for an epic atmosphere and is more prone to melodramatic, hammy vocal deliveries (or conversely more gruff vocals akin to Thrash) and power ballads. 

In the end it doesn't really matter to me personally whether it's added or not, especially as someone not in the Guardians clan, but I do believe that it is a distinct style.

Daniel, I agree with all you've said, the only exception being on USPM. I understand it may have started as a regional/periodic term, but I think the style has some tried and true traits that have carried on to modern times that differentiate it. If there are still bands today that fit the label, that would mean the label transcended it's original limitation and became a true genre.

Here's my opinion; could you place all USPM bands into another genre if you really wanted to? Yeah, of course. If you're going for convenience or simplicity, there's really no reason to add USPM. But the same could be said about every Death Metal or Black Metal subgenre. USPM is a valid type of Heavy Metal that sounds about as different from pure Heavy Metal as Melodeath does from pure Death Metal. 

Although, perhaps a decision about this specific subgenre should be left to the rightful clan of the Guardians? Maybe clan members should decide what subgenres are worth adding to their own clans as they've (presumably) the most knowledge, experience, and passion for those genres.

Personally I think Trad Doom should be added, because it sounds very different than bands like My Dying Bride for example. But, we should definitely have a discussion about where Epic Doom would fall without it's own subgenre. As I've said before, I find Epic Doom much closer to Trad Doom than pure Doom, as stylistically it tends to focus on groove and riffs rather than mood and atmosphere like later (now conventional) Doom.

NWOBHM is definitely fine being left out. Never understood people calling it a genre, it's like calling Visual Kei a genre (which RYM also does).

USPM I think should definitely be a subgenre. 

Southern Metal I haven't heard enough of to really debate. 

I like the feature! I notice some genres are not implemented (Trad Doom for example), are you you still in the process of adding, or do you plan to implement more over time? Or if not, perhaps there could be a discussion about what genres are being merged/left out and why?

I like MtG a lot, never got serious about it, but this might be all the motivation I need. 

I'll give Turbo the accolade of being underrated, I personally prefer it to British Steel and Killing Machine myself, but it does have some weak material. That being said... "Reckless" is in my top Judas Priest songs. Super underrated closer, amazing riffs and solos.

I personally believe that there's a window of time in our youth we're things impact us much more strongly than later in life. The games I played, the music I listened to, the movies I watched, when I was aged between about 12 and 18, will always have a nostalgic element that makes them more important to me than they would be if I'd experienced them later in life.

This makes it really hard to judge whether albums like Altars of Madness, Master of Puppets and Reign in Blood really are head and shoulders above everything released in the decades since, or whether it's just the impact they have on me personally due to my age at the time of experiencing them. It also results in things that I experienced during that time that might not otherwise have appealed to me much at all (such Amorphis' Tales From the Thousand Lakes and Cradle of Filth in general) being really important to me.

I'm not sure what the evolutionary purpose of this phenomena might be, but I do believe it's a thing. Thoughts?

Psych major here - During adolescence, our bodies are hyper-sensitive to stimulus of all kinds, especially emotional stimulus. This means that experiences and feelings we have at this stage in our life are intensified, and therefore solidified as significant memories in our brain. Anything that makes us feel strongly is more liable to be remembered and considered important to us, and since we are prone to feel more of everything in this period of our lives, what we experience often becomes ingrained much more significantly than in other periods of life. Evolutionary purpose? Humans need to take risks to evolve, and this risk taking behavior stems from the extreme sensitivity to feeling and the drive for more of it in this period of our lives. Favoring music (or anything) from this time period is a by-product of this.

At least, that was the consensus when I learned it. The field is always changing (and it's been some time since studying psych) so the details might not be 100%, but that's the gist of it.

As far as the claim that there are no great metal albums from the seventies, I guess this depends when you got into music. It's no surprise that I am an older metal head (shortly due to enter my sixtieth year - Fuck!!!), so I will obviously view records I grew up with differently than someone looking back three or four decades with no temporal context. I had good times with good friends listening to those records (some of whom are no longer with us), hanging out, going to gigs together, partying, so they are bound to resonate  with me more on a personal level. I think one of the great tragedies of the internet age, streaming and personal audio equipment is that lack of a shared experience with other like-minded travellers through life and whilst I concede that there is nothing wrong with listening to music impartially, I am unable to do so - context is everything in my mind and I admire those who can critique music without bias, unfortunately I'm not one of them.

I would, however, be first to admit that seventies' metal has more of a rock component, but I love 70's rock as well - my favourite musical year is 1971 - and I make no apologies for it. If you think you get to death metal, black metal, doom metal or whatever your metal genre of choice is, without those albums, then you are wrong. It's all interconnected - it's evolution, man.

Just wanna clarify it's just my personal taste that they don't appeal to me as much - not taking away from their importance or saying they can't be masterpieces to another person! I just didn't bother tempering my take cause that's what this thread is about haha. Like you, I am absolutely effected by my experiences with an album when I judge it, I don't think anyone can not be to some degree. But it doesn't have anything to do with not growing up in the era for me - I have very important experiences listening to bands like Slayer despite not getting into metal until the 2000's. It's all just a matter of taste.

Lyrics that make me think are good, lyrics that make me feel are best. Any song with lyrics that manage to choke me up is pretty immediately at least a 4.5/5 for me.

That's a great point and one I can wholeheartedly get behind. The lyrics and their heartfelt delivery are probably the main reason Warning's Watching From A Distance is my favourite album - they get me every time.

I actually haven't heard Warning yet (I will, don't worry) but 40 Watt Sunn (same vocalist) is in my top 5 bands for that reason. Some of the most powerfully moving lyrics and delivery I've ever heard. Warning is a band I look forward to getting sad to haha.

1. Lyrics matter. Bad lyrics ruin good stuff for me, and they always equate into a rating unless I don't understand the language (even then I will translate if possible). Bad lyrics are no different than bad guitar to me. 

Quoted SilentScream213

Interesting comment and not one you hear bandied around in metal circles much. For me, the vocals matter a huge amount, not so much the lyrics, although really cheesy lyrics make me cringe (the new Briton Rites album, for example, is lyrically awful). I would be genuinely interested to know, what do you look for specifically in lyrical content that would cause a big boost in your rating of an album and conversely what would deserve a docking?

Just to be clear I'm not saying anything DESRRVES to be docked for any reason, but I rate things completely subjectively, and therefore it's just lyrics I like versus dislike. Lyrics I really don't like include:

Boastful/we're a metal band playing metal/let's party/come headbang with us type stuff, a big reason why I'm not a huge fan of Kill Em All as opposed to the very serious and literature inspired lyrics on Ride the Lightning.

Anything silly or humorous unless it's pulled off insanely well, which I haven't heard yet. I love tongue in cheek stuff if they go all down and act like they're serious though (Ghost, Powerwolf)

Drug use, when delivered in a "let's get high/drunk" manner. I love when bands look at the actual struggles and effects of abuse, but I hate any lighthearted promotion of it.

Probably goes without saying, but prejudice when played straight. No problem at all if a band wants to write a song from a nazi's perspective and have very serious lyrics if done well, but if members are actually voicing their own opinions and seriously encouraging prejudice, no good.

Then there are just generally poor lyrics. No substance, no emotion, no message... Megadeth's "Wake Up Dead" is an example of a song with great music that I can't enjoy because of how awful the lyrics are.

Lyrics that make me think are good, lyrics that make me feel are best. Any song with lyrics that manage to choke me up is pretty immediately at least a 4.5/5 for me.

Here are my general ones

1. Lyrics matter. Bad lyrics ruin good stuff for me, and they always equate into a rating unless I don't understand the language (even then I will translate if possible). Bad lyrics are no different than bad guitar to me. 

2. I don't care about impact or historical significance or anything like that. I listen to music in a vacuum. And thus...

3. 70's metal, in general, is not that great. It's only revered because it came first. Basically one riff and a guitar solo away from Hard Rock. There was almost no innovation for the first decade, whereas the 80's saw a massive explosion in subgenres, technique, delivery, etc. There is not a single 70's metal album I consider a masterpiece, with Judas Priest's Sin After Sin being my favorite, but nowhere near my top.

4. Atmosphere, mood, emotion, delivery > technical skill, prowess, wankery, complexity 

5. Doom Metal is one of my favorite genres, but 80's Doom is really bland. Even Cadlemass is not among my favorite Doom artists. I feel 80's Doom had not yet captured the - as I mention above - atmosphere and mood that it gained in the 90's that made it a truly melancholic genre rather than just a lethargic and boring one.

Here are more specific ones

1. All In Flames albums are great, and their dive into Alternative Metal still makes them one of the most innovative bands ever. One day people will realize these guys basically perfected Pop Metal and once the stigma for that dies I believe they will get the credit they deserve.

2. Since I see the name being thrown around... Thrash Voivod > Prog Voivod

3. Most underground Thrash is better than any of the Big 4 barring Slayer. The other 3 were pretty much Thrash lite and that's probably why they got popular. (I still love them, just love my dark underground Thrash more).

4. St. Anger is not that bad? Not great, but... 

So my question is, what are your conscious or unconscious biases when rating albums - and please don't tell me you don't have any, because if you think that's the case then, sorry, you do, you just don't recognise any of them!

It's tricky determining the difference between a bias and personal taste. I suppose a bias I have is that it might be hard for me to enjoy music made by a terrible person. I wouldn't consciously lower ratings due to that, but if it genuinely makes me enjoy the song less knowing about it, then obviously my rating will be affected. I'm usually pretty good with seperating art from artist, but if (for example) I hate listening to a vocalist say anything because I know they suck, and therefore I hate listening to the song, I'm not gonna hold back in giving it a bad rating.