Clan challenge progress

Personally, I'd like to see people taking whatever they like from the Academy so I wouldn't want to offer upgraded statuses to those that see merit in completing the clan challenges when there are so many other ways to contribute to the site. In fact, I'd argue that bringing new members to the site, regularly contributing to the forums, helping to close out Hall of Judgement submissions & participating in the monthly playlist & feature release activities all bring more to the wider community than progressively completing clan challenges in isolation. Besides, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with individuals holding higher statuses than others on the Academy given that our original intent was to create an elitist-free environment where everyone is treated equally.

I repeat: They aren't really "higher status."  They'd only be a measurement of how many clan challenges you accumulate.  On Metal Forum, there's a rank status but nobody ever brought it up on the forums.  It doesn't really feel important as it was more of a "way to go for getting this far" kind of thing, like a special cutscene from a Metroid game.  It was just there for fun, same as the badge system on Wikia.  Now I don't know how it works on Metallum, but if there's one thing I do know: this community cannot be compared to them because we're nowhere near as stuffy.  Honestly, if you're gonna gloat about it, chances are that the rest of the community will make fun of you for it.  Metal Archives is... special.  And this is coming from the autistic one.  Normal metal websites like this, Metal Forum and Metal Music Archives don't need to worry about it.

By way of context, nobody brought it up at Metal Forum because nobody there cares.  It came as part of the new board config introduced in a hurry after repeated security issues and the admin has insufficient time to disable it. 

I am not having a go at you here Rex, but in terms of bringing new members to Metal Academy,  where do you think these people are after the site being here for a number of years already?  There's no orderly queue formed just waiting for some new game-changing feature or functionality to open the floodgates for new members.  This is why (and correct me if I am wrong Ben or Daniel) enhancements to the site are largely done with the existing community in mind and to help the founding members realise their vision and goals. 

"Motivation" to complete challenges is entirely personal I believe, if I have a vested interest in a genre/sub-genre and I want to discover more about it then there's a resource for it here (for the majority of circumstance).  There appears to be the intimation here that the challenges need to be completed to serve the purpose of their existence which is clearly not the case.  If I discover one new album or better still an artist via one of the challenges then they are a success. Plus I can complete any one of the remaining challenges without needing to be recognised for it - I have been afforded that luxury already.  

Finally, Ben and Daniel have entrusted the regulars here with not only feature release nominations but also the programming and publishing of monthly playlists for each clan.  That speaks volumes for the regard they hold the contributors to the site, better than any badge or merit status.

Again, not having a go, just adding some context from my experience of this great site.

Solid list, Rex! One question though; the 2005 Suicide Silence EP or their 2017 album? The latter has their controversial one-time switch to full-on nu metal.

I think I forgot the album title when composing the list and got mixed up.  I'll change it later

I admit that the site has its pros, but as long as it's just the few of us, there really isn't much activity going on as most of us don't post often.  I could be wrong on this, but doesn't more people visiting generate more revenue for the creators to put towards the site?

I admit that the site has its pros, but as long as it's just the few of us, there really isn't much activity going on as most of us don't post often.  I could be wrong on this, but doesn't more people visiting generate more revenue for the creators to put towards the site?

I don't think the site is monetised in any way, Rex, and all the costs have been borne by Ben and Daniel alone.

I admit that the site has its pros, but as long as it's just the few of us, there really isn't much activity going on as most of us don't post often.  I could be wrong on this, but doesn't more people visiting generate more revenue for the creators to put towards the site?

I don't think the site is monetised in any way, Rex, and all the costs have been borne by Ben and Daniel alone.

That honestly doesn't feel right.  I mean, if streaming services give revenue per stream, there shoul be some system for visits.

But honestly, there are people who are into other ideas of fun.  Personally, I'm not into the whole weekly track thing, and I know others might not be.  Ranking up or collecting badges would only be another thing to do here, and it would stay true to the metal spirit as it is still based on writing GOOD and full reviews.  I know I'm into that kind of thing, as well as designing them.  It's not as much about attracting newe people as it is having more to do when everything else isn't satisfying.

Plus, we really need more lists for the Sphere and Revolution anyway.

Let's be clear about something. I've not received a cent for anything to do with Metal Academy, and have put a lot of sweat and tears into it, not to mention well in excess of $10K in developing it and many more thousands on running costs. I've never considered monetising it, as that would either involve advertising all over the place (which I hate) or having some sort of Patreon set up (for which we obviously don't have enough regulars to even consider). I'll also point out that I've never even looked at site visit stats, as it's not something I care much about. I imagine a lot more people than we realise find their way to the site but never become members, perhaps using it as a source for high quality metal album covers (for which I'm convinced it's now the go to site on the internet).

I designed and built Metal Academy because it's something I personally wanted to use. Of course I hoped that there would be lots of other metal fans that would embrace the idea and that a community would form around it, but even if no-one had ever come, I'd still be using it and spending hours every day adding releases. If find it satisfying and even meditative, and scratches my completist itch. Perhaps there just isn't a big audience for this sort of site anymore, with the younger generation seeing social media platforms as the be all and end all for pretty much everything in their lives. Blogs and forums are an old school concept after all. I can't imagine adding any particular feature and suddenly having hundreds of regulars, but if it were to happen, that feature would have to be truly unique and fascinating. Maybe we just have to think harder about how we could utilise the site's overarching clan idea to make something people couldn't resist being part of.

As for your suggestion that "we really need more lists for the Sphere and Revolution", well I'm not opposed to it, but I don't think anyone has ever completed the current challenges. I see no reason to make 2 or 3 Industrial Metal challenges when it seems like no-one is interested in completing the first one. Based on everything you've said above, it sounds like getting a fourth clan would be just the sort of thing you'd be excited about, and yet you haven't got one yet. Do you have an idea which one you would want to add?

We both know it was all for the chicks Ben.

Let's be clear about something. I've not received a cent for anything to do with Metal Academy, and have put a lot of sweat and tears into it, not to mention well in excess of $10K in developing it and many more thousands on running costs. I've never considered monetising it, as that would either involve advertising all over the place (which I hate) or having some sort of Patreon set up (for which we obviously don't have enough regulars to even consider). I'll also point out that I've never even looked at site visit stats, as it's not something I care much about. I imagine a lot more people than we realise find their way to the site but never become members, perhaps using it as a source for high quality metal album covers (for which I'm convinced it's now the go to site on the internet).

I designed and built Metal Academy because it's something I personally wanted to use. Of course I hoped that there would be lots of other metal fans that would embrace the idea and that a community would form around it, but even if no-one had ever come, I'd still be using it and spending hours every day adding releases. If find it satisfying and even meditative, and scratches my completist itch. Perhaps there just isn't a big audience for this sort of site anymore, with the younger generation seeing social media platforms as the be all and end all for pretty much everything in their lives. Blogs and forums are an old school concept after all. I can't imagine adding any particular feature and suddenly having hundreds of regulars, but if it were to happen, that feature would have to be truly unique and fascinating. Maybe we just have to think harder about how we could utilise the site's overarching clan idea to make something people couldn't resist being part of.

As for your suggestion that "we really need more lists for the Sphere and Revolution", well I'm not opposed to it, but I don't think anyone has ever completed the current challenges. I see no reason to make 2 or 3 Industrial Metal challenges when it seems like no-one is interested in completing the first one. Based on everything you've said above, it sounds like getting a fourth clan would be just the sort of thing you'd be excited about, and yet you haven't got one yet. Do you have an idea which one you would want to add?

Tthis isn't even about monetizing anymore.  I don't want to do the weekly track things, I like the site, but there isn't enough to do, so I'm bored.  And if mentioning other people never convinces anyone, then at least consider that currently I would like more to do here than the general norm at least.  So I throw ideas around here in the hopes that maybe something new will come along.  I know what I want my fourth clan to be, but I want to keep it a surprise, and the clan challenges are going to take quite a while because I have other albums I need to listen to outside of metal.  So while I can't do these things, I encourage things that may or may not help flesh out other areas of the site in a community based method, which is where I got the idea for the weekly chart albums thread.

I know people who go searching for niche forums, and I can promise you one thing: if it looks like there's hardly anyone here, they'll likely leave.  I'm trying to help make this place look a little better, because that's what I've done for years on multiple websites, and I'd like to get back to it with something new, plausible and workable.  And you NEED people here to complete more halls as wel, but there's more to it.  You need people to flesh out the overall charts here.  The number one here has been the same ever since I rated it over a year ago.  A great way to attract people is to flesh each and every area out.

I don't know what year Metal Academy was founded, but I've been helping other build up and add to websites for the past 16 years.  All I'm asking is that SOMETHING be taken into consideration, because no matter what forum I go to, if something looks incomplete, I try to help as much as I can.  And if it's too dead, I leave for a while.

I don't know what the fear concerning this is, but it seems like the only two complaints for almost every idea I've had so far are "becoming Metal Archives" or "neglecting clan integrity."  No offense, but I feel the need to say this: I don't always get a convincing explanation as to how becuase sometimes it feels more like a "fear of the unknown" thing.  If we're not going to have a fifth clan, I'm cool with it as long as it's official.  All I needed was confirmation.  We need to take the fifth clan option off of the FAQ.  But a website will be more fun if there's more to do.  Maybe Metal Archives has a lot of pretentious people, but the majority of people on Metal Forum and Metalstorm are pretty chill, and Metalstorm even has a ban list.   And my interest in the Sphere's lack of lists is purely personal, as I view having only one list in comparison to the rest quite jarring, and that industrial metal has more to offer.

There are plenty of nerds these days who care about general appearances, and I don't mean graphic design.  I hung out on RYM for years, and much of what we talked about were how the overall charts looked.  Now the clans, halls and ranking of art are all great ideas, and a big part of the reason I stay here.  I'm doing what I can to make these things look better, but I can't do everything alone, so I throw ideas around to try and flesh things out.  And I know this may sound childish, but it does get a bit hurtful when every idea I propose is either ignored or shot down.  I've tried all the stuff here, but much of it ends up with little no know result because of lack of people.  So I'm going to ask: at least give the Official Chart Reviewers Club a chance.  That and the new Sphere lists are the best ideas I have.  Besides, eventually I'm going to complete one list of each genre for fun, because I'm here not just to have fun, but to educate myself.  Namesake aside, I did that on RYM too.

AND: This is the perfect time to add new Revolution and Sphere lists for the reason you just stated: we can perfect and flesh them out before anyone completes them, that way there's no confusion or glitches if we do it afterwards.

I apologise if I'm seeming dismissive. I appreciate anyone suggesting new ideas. You might recall that I thought your club idea is a good one, and encouraged you to do it. I'd really like to participate, but I have my own rating project that I'm putting my time into. I'll try to get involved when a release tickles my fancy, but I can't speak for everyone else.

As a sign that I genuinely do care, I'll formulate two industrial metal challenges and see how they look. I just want to challenge people to think outside the square a bit. I genuinely believe there's a really cool idea that would fit in with what we're doing here. Something no-one has done, and will garner significant interest. I'm willing to fund it if it has real potential. I'm afraid I just don't believe that slightly altering things we're already doing will draw in a bigger crowd. I still want to do those things so the site is as good as it can be for the community we have, but let's not pretend that adding another list or making the charts more complete will change the world. Let's think BIG!

Perhaps we could introduce a system people could use that would suggest clans for them, similar to Harry Potter's sorting hat? Maybe we could build the coolest recommendation system that would genuinely work (unlike every one I've ever seen)? How about we go with the Academy angle and really delve into the education side of things? Or maybe introducing advanced statistics similar to the way Letterboxd does for movies would add the missing ingredient (see below examples)? I've been concentrating on getting as many releases on the site as I can for the past few years, but at some point I want to try to take Metal Academy to the next level. I may need to wait until the current financial burdens (increased interest rates and cost of living) improve, but I'm committed for the long run.

I think Letterboxd's stats screen is pretty cool...

The badges and ranks would be more like little add-ons based on a potential building up by little bits, like what RYM does but with different angels.  RYM doesn't really need a badge system.  But it's not like I wanted to "change the world," just to further flesh out current features.  Some of them need a little more.

I love the sorting hat idea, though.  This is yet another thing other websites don't have.  But the thing here is that we'll need to devise a system of tags that would make for proper recommendations.  But as opposed to tagging every individual album, each clan would have different types of tags.  If we take the questionnaire route like a lot of online Sorting Hat games, they'd need to be sweet and simple, none of that Mystery Dungeon stuff.  Example: do you prefer fast or slow music?  Which vibe are you into: robotic, fantasy, ghostly, evil, maniacal, etc?  A simpler variant would have to launch so it doesn't seem to complicated.

I'd note that popular sites on the internet seem to only exist because in spite of the fact that everyone who uses them seems to hate them, they're also the only places people are. From my limited understanding of the way things happen, you just need to have a good enough site to theoretically replace one that already exists whenever that one does something that makes everyone on that website pack up and leave, and that they have a path to yours. But on the other hand, seeing as how most of the places that would be the source of that exodus seem to have a not particularly positive userbase, that exodus seems like it would only ever really happen if one of those websites went kaput. Which isn't getting into how most people are lurkers and not contributors, so to speak. (in terms of using the site much and not just reading stuff)

(but I admit, I'm only talking about ones I know that Ben has mentioned)

I'm pretty sure if Ben was just interested in popularity he'd add a Discord or something. Even though those inevitably seem to attract drama by the boatload.

Also, don't feel too bad about not getting too many people in your reviewer's club, Rex, after all, there are feature releases that just have one rating.

Personally, I'd hate it if this site started a discord.  I just hate discord.  I prefer the effing MLP villain solely by virtue of John de Lancie.

I have Discord, but due to some drama in a couple servers that I'm in, I'm not up for a Metal Academy server until further notice.

I've been wondering if the missing piece might be to crossover into similar territory as sites like Metal Sucks by including regular articles & interviews. It'd obviously require an enormous effort but I'm not gonna rule a line through the idea just yet. Thoughts?

We can definitely do regular articles, Daniel. Interviews, I don’t know. We’ve rarely been in contact with any notable metal band members nowadays.

Speak for yourself Andi. One of us has been in & around the Aussie metal scene since the early 1990’s. You’d probably be surprised at how many bands reach out to us for interviews & publicity too.

Might I be bold enough to ask the question, if you wish the site to have broader appeal, then are the longer-time members like myself who have been happy with how the site functions and how we can interact with it for several years now, really the ones to ask about changing it? There are obviously many people who register and then disappear, some even starting off like they might hang around, but they don't. Have they been contacted to enquire as to why they didn't ultimately think it was for them?

Does anybody feel that the lack of resources such as tracklists, labels etc. for the releases has a negative effect?

At the risk of showing my ignorance, what is a discord?

For myself, depending in the subject, I would possibly be interested in some articles, for example Daniel, I would really like to hear about some of your experiences as an insider in the early Aussie death metal scene, but interviews with musicians, like interviews with actors, I find tend to be self-aggrandising and excuses for promoting whatever their latest project is and so I very rarely read interviews.

I don't mind a good article or interview but (as you allude to Daniel) with barely enough time to keep on top of playlists and feature releases, not sure where the time to do engage on this would come from.  I think we are skirting around the elephant in the room in that forums in general are a dying artform - now that's not to say we should let them die - so with all the best will in the world, as forums continue to shutdown (MetalFi being one I am more recently aware of) there will only ever be small numbers of members of these niche communities looking for a new home.  In my experience this means about four or five regulars becoming new members somewhere else when forced to do so. I just do not buy into this notion that there is any halfway substantial quantity of people out there waiting to join a metal forum/site.  Not trying to sound negative, just being honest.

To pick up on Sonny's point about resources, I only use any website as one of many resources if I am researching anything, just to make sure I get consistent information usually.  So I don't personally feel there is any hinderance here on MA from a resource perspective.

At the risk of showing my ignorance, what is a discord?

Quoted Sonny

Discord is a social app where you can create a Server and invite people to it. You can then craft the server to your liking with text channels where people can send messages, or create voice channels that people can join and talk. It's highly customizable since you can have bots do automated things or give people certain roles that allows/disallows them to do things that you specify. With how MA is currently set up, it'd basically be an alternate version of what we already have here if set up. Separate text channels for each clan, running announcement channels that would alert everyone of the new Features of the month. It's just more immediate than forums, since people use it to chat in real time like text messaging. 

Just to chime in since I'm technically a regular, sites like Metal Academy take a tremendous amount of effort compared to normal social media sites. And honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way since it makes the content on here more interesting and based less on engagement farming for the sake of a number going up. Algorithms and all that junk. 

But again, it takes effort. Right now my schedule and brain capacity between work, studying, and the rest of my life doesn't allow me to get the creative review juices flowing. As I'm sure you've seen from my lack of reviews or engagement on a lot of monthly things. Hopefully this'll turn around eventually but the framework of the site does ask for a lot out of people. Which again, is fine.

At the risk of showing my ignorance, what is a discord?

Quoted Sonny

Discord is a social app where you can create a Server and invite people to it. You can then craft the server to your liking with text channels where people can send messages, or create voice channels that people can join and talk. It's highly customizable since you can have bots do automated things or give people certain roles that allows/disallows them to do things that you specify. With how MA is currently set up, it'd basically be an alternate version of what we already have here if set up. Separate text channels for each clan, running announcement channels that would alert everyone of the new Features of the month. It's just more immediate than forums, since people use it to chat in real time like text messaging. 

Just to chime in since I'm technically a regular, sites like Metal Academy take a tremendous amount of effort compared to normal social media sites. And honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way since it makes the content on here more interesting and based less on engagement farming for the sake of a number going up. Algorithms and all that junk. 

But again, it takes effort. Right now my schedule and brain capacity between work, studying, and the rest of my life doesn't allow me to get the creative review juices flowing. As I'm sure you've seen from my lack of reviews or engagement on a lot of monthly things. Hopefully this'll turn around eventually but the framework of the site does ask for a lot out of people. Which again, is fine.

Ah, thanks for the explanation Xephyr.

I don't mind a good article or interview but (as you allude to Daniel) with barely enough time to keep on top of playlists and feature releases, not sure where the time to do engage on this would come from.  I think we are skirting around the elephant in the room in that forums in general are a dying artform - now that's not to say we should let them die - so with all the best will in the world, as forums continue to shutdown (MetalFi being one I am more recently aware of) there will only ever be small numbers of members of these niche communities looking for a new home.  In my experience this means about four or five regulars becoming new members somewhere else when forced to do so. I just do not buy into this notion that there is any halfway substantial quantity of people out there waiting to join a metal forum/site.  Not trying to sound negative, just being honest.

To pick up on Sonny's point about resources, I only use any website as one of many resources if I am researching anything, just to make sure I get consistent information usually.  So I don't personally feel there is any hinderance here on MA from a resource perspective.

I sort of covered that by mentioning lurkers, but I guess not enough.

The problem, it seems even moreso with the modern internet is that people tend to just look at content rather than make their own. (in this context, forum posts and reviews) They'll read, they might even rate things, but they'll only rarely post, and only if something really ticks them off. Look but don't touch, as it were.

Even Discord seems to have this problem in my experience, there's the illusion of more people, but most of the time you have a very small group of people with seemingly no life outside of Discord on every server, and you're practically intruding on someone else's private conversations by joining in. (no, seriously, every server I've seen seems to have a problem of TMI)

I just do not buy into this notion that there is any halfway substantial quantity of people out there waiting to join a metal forum/site.

I don't remember a notion specifically being mentioned, though.  But it's true that balancing new ideas with a sense of familiarity will broaden the range of attraction.  Specifically which of one, the other or both will attract who is basically a coin toss if there's attraction at all, but there's really no risk involved.

As for the general cleanup, that's where some of the smaller things kick in, like the recent idea to put a border over completed lists.  And of course, we should just delete the 5th clan mention from the FAQ.  As for clan challenges, it's best to handle any edits now before later, since many of them have yet to be completed by anyone, even though many of the clan challenge list categories already have a fine number of them.  The missing genres so far are:

FALLEN: Drone

GATEWAY: Maybe Nu depending on our mood.

GUARDIANS: Neoclassical

HORDE: Having a Deathgrind one feels appropriate considering the clan's two focuses.

INFINITE: Post-Metal, not my favorite metal genre but I'm always willing to do the research needed.  it's already begging for Agalloch and Solstafir.

NORTH: Viking if there's enough.

PIT: Stenchcore

REVOLUTION: Deathcore and maybe a mathcore one.

SPHERE: It really just needs "era" lists.

Look, I'm not saying that Ben & I won't consider some of this in the future but it's probably worth mentioning what the Clan Challenges are there for in the first place. They're intended to prove that a potential member has a good understanding & interest in the clan in question before allowing them entry to that clan which is the reason that we haven't included challenges based around niche genres as they don't do much to prove a person's commitment to the overall clan. I mean, if someone really only likes Neoclassical Metal but not Heavy Metal or Power Metal then I don't think they're a great fit for The Guardians. The same can be said for Stenchcore in The Pit or Folk Metal in The North.

Look, I'm not saying that Ben & I won't consider some of this in the future but it's probably worth mentioning what the Clan Challenges are there for in the first place. They're intended to prove that a potential member has a good understanding & interest in the clan in question before allowing them entry to that clan which is the reason that we haven't included challenges based around niche genres as they don't do much to prove a person's commitment to the overall clan. I mean, if someone really only likes Neoclassical Metal but not Heavy Metal or Power Metal then I don't think they're a great fit for The Guardians. The same can be said for Stenchcore in The Pit or Folk Metal in The North.

Do you mean viking metal?  I'm just pointing out the ones that are missing but listed on the clans page rather than the lists page, and the subgenres of the ones listed aren't as necessary to me, but more "maybe" than the "maybe" level of the missing prime genres.  And on top of thqt, if the research in something is needed but neither you or Ben have the time, I'm happy to do it if you need me to.  I mean, much of what I do is go through the RYM charts and choose which ones are both popular and highly rated enough to work.  I was a little more merciful on the ratings for my recent deathcore list, though. :P

As far as folk metal goes, I like it well enough.  It has enough similarities to the guardians stuff to consider, even though I feel it really does belong in the North for its common reliance on atmosphere.  Hell, I've already got 12 five-stars for it, and five for viking metal., which has heavy ties to both genres thanks to several popular and well-recieved bands: Bathory, Equilibrium, Ensiferum, Falkenbach, Finsterfrost, Enslaved, Thyrfing, etc.  Now that I list these, did I make a custom list for that?

You know, I'll post my own custom list challenges in my lists page instead.