The "Influence or Coincidence, Inspiration or Plagiarism" Thread

After all these years I regularly find myself identifying some pretty familiar moments in metal music. This thread is a place for us all to share those moments & speculate on how they came to be. I'll start with this one from Metallica's classic 1984 album "Ride The Lightning". Check out the main riff that starts from 1:49 & compare it to the opening riff from this track from obscure NWOBHM band Ritual's 1983 debut album "Widow".

Influence or concidence? Inspiration or plagiarism?

If they did plagiarize it, they did that song a favor.  The production doesn't do anything good about that Ritual song any justice...

Here's an example. Check out the small riff fiddle that occurs multiple times throughout this Converge song (first time at 0:23):

And then a highly similar small riff fiddle throughout the outro of this My Dying Bride song (first time at 7:18):

The more suspicious conspiracy theorists out there would think:

But I think YES! Two different bands, genres, and songs, one similar riff fiddle.

That one will be coincidence as the guitarists are just playing the same hammer/pull-off & descending down the string a fret at a time. It’s a pretty easy thing to come up with really so I wouldn’t think there’s a much of a connection. Good pickup though.

Recently, I've been getting back into Ningen Isu, a Japanese band very much like Black Sabbath. Very, very much like Black Sabbath. Too much like Black Sabbath, obvious.

(it should be timestamped properly, if not it's about 2:07) The problem is, while I know that's obviously taken from some Black Sabbath song, I can't actually put my finger on which one. It strikes me that this is less "ripoff" and more "obvious nod", since Ningen Isu in general often sounds like a tribute to Ozzy-era Sabbath.

(2:32 on this one) I know it's taking inspiration from something, but what I can't figure it out. Probably because my mental library of '60s psych is sorely lacking.

Check out the similarities between the Diamond Head riff at 1:24 in 1980's "Am I Evil?" & the riff at 0:23 in Mercyful Fate's "Black Masses" from 1983. Plagiarism or coincidence?

I think I've heard Fate use the first riff at some point before note for note. I think the latter is probably a, "well, let's make a riff like the one from Am I Evil?", and later on after having forgotten they adjusted it, did a new version of the riff where it sounded closer to the original.

Mercyful Fate's 1983 progressive metal classic "Satan's Fall" is a really interesting one because you can both pick up Fate's influences but can also see their influence on others pretty clearly.

Let's start with the opening riff & compare it with the opening riff from Led Zeppelin's 1970 classic "Immigrant Song". Fate’s label was pushing them to cover “Immigrant Song” & they apparently did record it at some point but it was later decided not to release it for some reason. You would have to think that given the evidence here that cover version has contributed to what could only be described as plagiarism. 

Then "Satan's Fall" moves into a riff that should sound unnervingly familiar to Slayer fans at 0:42. You probably can’t count how many Slayer riffs have been created from the dark harmonized melodies in this riff alone. In fact, it was probably the darkest & heaviest riff in metal history to that time & there’s also another chuggier riff at 3:24 that oozes of that imposing Slayer sound too. The "Melissa" album was clearly the biggest influence on Slayer’s darker & more progressive second album “Hell Awaits” following their more NWOBHM influenced debut “Show No Mercy”.

They transition into a quite progressive melodic riff at 1:10 that reeks of 90’s Death to my ears. I’m certain this is no coincidence as Chuck Schuldiner was a big fan of the band.

Things break down after that with guitar coming in with an accompanied tremolo picked melodic riff at 1:40 that sounds exactly like something that Emperor or Mayhem might have used in the early 90’s. The only difference is that those bands would have utilized modern blast beats to milk this riff for a longer duration than Fate have here. It was certainly amongst the darkest & most evil moments in metal history to the time though & the King’s contribution during that section highlights what the black metal movement would be all about.

Then finally we see an unaccompanied guitar riff at 2:19 that sounds exactly like it was pulled from an Autopsy record. It’s even got a similarly unusual guitar sound which would now seem to have been a strong influence on the death metal pioneers from the evidence presented to us here. The thrashy onslaught at 8:13 is reminiscent of more extreme bands like Possessed & early Morbid Angel too only Fate proceed to add harmonies & head into a section that was clearly heavily influenced by Iron Maiden. 

There's simply so much to unpack in this song. It's such a fantastic discussion point.

The very roots of our beloved metal genre have an air of plagiarism hanging over them actually with the undeniable classic of a doom riff from the original metal song "Black Sabbath" having been derived as a variation on a section of this classical piece that was written between 1914 & 1917. Check out the part at 4:30 in "Mars, The Bringer Of War" that Geezer Butler played to Tony Iommi back in the day & compare it to Sabbath's title track.

Personally I feel that it's much more appropriate to call that inspiration than anything like plagiarism as the two have such different timbres. Thoughts?

I feel like it's more inspiration than anything.  The Planets is too popular of a classical piece to credit as your own.

Yep, I agree that it's definitely inspiration. I also found out that the bridge of "Children of the Grave" (2:21) also took inspiration from "Mars":

Apparently, "Mars" also inspired "The Imperial March" and "Imperial Attack" themes from Star Wars, with "Venus" inspiring "The Force Theme".

I forget what the exact song is off-hand, but Paranoid (the song) bore a striking similarity to some other song from around that time.

The Half-Life track was released around six months earlier than "Paranoid". You be the judge.

Definitely some inspiration in the instrumentation for "Paranoid", though the Half-Life track has more of a hard rock/garage rock sound.

I think it's too accurate to be classed as inspiration personally. I'd suggest that (intentionally or subconsciously) it's likely an example of plagiarism.

Here's another one that I find hard to believe can be coincidental:

Both albums were released in 1973 but I'm led to believe that the Vanusa one came first.

That's kind of freaky, but it seems to me it might just be coincidence. It just seems to me that the two travel in different circles on different parts of the globe and the song in question doesn't seem to be off that popular an album. I could be wrong, it's hard to verify the popularity of certain old songs in the modern era.

Although it is likely to be a coincidence, it doesn't seem that way. The Vanusa riff sounds like if Black Sabbath recorded "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" 3 years prior, before Tony Iommi started downtuning his guitar.

On the other side of the coin, is Blondie's 1980 hit single "Call Me" (which was written by Italian Giorgio Moroder) not built on a suspiciously similar riff to the main one in Black Sabbath's "Children Of The Grave"?

Wow, they do sound similar! I honestly can't tell if that one's a coincidence or influence. Now here's another song (from a children's show!) that uses a similar riff to "Children of the Grave", but most likely an influence:

I've always been disappointed whenever I heard Call Me come on the radio because of that. That and some song whose name escapes me which starts with a suspiciously similar intro to Holy Diver.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, probably given that Moroder would have heard it at some point. Obviously the Looney Tunes song is just a straight up parody, which is a different matter altogether.

Lucifer's Friend's most acclaimed moment is a clear example of plagiarism with the horn part exactly emulating Robert Plant screams in "Immigrant Song" which was released just a month earlier.

Ride the Sky was also a single, and since singles are usually released before the album, but Zeppelin also performed the song for the first time t the 1970 Bath Festival of Blues and Progressive Music in June.

I really don't think there's any doubt about Metallica stealing 1986's "Welcome Home (Sanitarium)" (which was supposed written by James, Lars & Kirk) from obscure NWOBHM outfit Bleak House's 1980 "Rainbow Warrior" single now, is there? This would have to be one of the most blatant examples of plagiarism you'll find in all of metal in my opinion.