The Fallen Clan Structure
Happy weekend to all of our The Fallen members.
Following on from my recent rework on the Atmospheric Sludge Metal topic, I'm just interested to know how everyone feels about The Fallen clan structure now. Do you feel that the genre/subgenre sets are now fully functional, correct & complete now? Would you like to see any further adjustments or additions? Are there any genres or subgenres that you think are out of place, pointless or are obvious omissions that would add value?
Sonny, SilentScream213, Vinny, Morpheus Kitami? I look forward to your feedback.
I may have missed something, but what has changed, Daniel?
We removed the Atmospheric Sludge Metal subgenre from the site altogether Sonny. Nothing else has changed. I’m just interested to know if there’s anything else worth considering at this point or if everyone is comfortable with the current configuration.
We removed the Atmospheric Sludge Metal subgenre from the site altogether Sonny. Nothing else has changed. I’m just interested to know if there’s anything else worth considering at this point or if everyone is comfortable with the current configuration.
Yes, I think it works pretty well. The only real change that may be worth considering in future is the addition of epic doom metal as a sub-genre as I am coming to the opinion that it has sufficiently divergent attributes to differentiate it from conventional doom.
I'm not Fallen, but I really do see a clear distinction between atmo-sludge and post-metal, and refuse to call one the subgenre of the other. There's a little overlap, and that's it as far as I'm concerned. Post-metal shouldn't just be long atmospheric metal. Take bands like GYBE, Sans and Tortoise in post-rock. There's more to it on a structural spectrum, and most atmo-sludge doesn't meet that standard. They're just slow and atmospheric, big woop, like atmo-black.
So my final point is: I wouldn't mind if atmo-sludge returned as a separate entity, but I have little to do with the Fallen save voting on alls that the Fallen happen to be on, so whatevs.
What sub-genres are there in the Fallen beyond doom/death these days? I think the primary genres are pretty much good as they are now, but couldn't tell you about any clan's secondary genres off-hand.
There’s three subgenres under the Doom Metal genre i.e. Doom Metal (Conventional), Death Doom Metal & Funeral Doom Metal.
I have no idea what “atmospheric sludge” is so hadn’t even noticed the change. I lack the laser focus on the clans that others have. Short answer, it’s fine as is.
I'm not Fallen, but I really do see a clear distinction between atmo-sludge and post-metal, and refuse to call one the subgenre of the other. There's a little overlap, and that's it as far as I'm concerned. Post-metal shouldn't just be long atmospheric metal. Take bands like GYBE, Sans and Tortoise in post-rock. There's more to it on a structural spectrum, and most atmo-sludge doesn't meet that standard. They're just slow and atmospheric, big woop, like atmo-black.
So my final point is: I wouldn't mind if atmo-sludge returned as a separate entity, but I have little to do with the Fallen save voting on halls that the Fallen happen to be on, so whatevs.
For the record, Atmospheric Sludge Metal is a term that RYM penned & popularized. Most other major metal sites ignored it & the term has only recently been taken up by a site like Metal Archives, presumably caving to long-term pressure from RYMers. In fact, I used to use the term at several other sites prior to us starting Metal Academy & was generally laughed at which caused me to revert to using post-sludge metal for many years now as people better understood what I was talking about.
RYM's definition states that "Atmospheric sludge metal is a Post-Metal subgenre that takes the dense, punishing textures of Sludge Metal with an extensive, otherworldly atmosphere, performed with an emphasis on atmospheric and textured riffs" so there's definitely no distinction between Atmospheric Sludge Metal & Post-Sludge Metal as far as RYM are concerned. In fact, if we go further back then the "post-metal" term was originally penned to label the post-sludge bands that popularized the post-rock influenced sound in the early-to-mid 1990's. If there are Atmospheric Sludge Metal releases on RYM that are simply "long, atmospheric metal" then they've been mistagged but in my experience that would be the exception rather than the rule as I've found that the majority of Atmospheric Sludge Metal releases on RYM contain the required post-rock characteristics. They're far more often missing enough genuine sludge metal for them to be an appropriate fit for The Fallen though & the action we've taken to split the subgenre into two separate genres makes it easier for us to remove one from a release if the use of both is deemed to be inappropriate. I also see no reason to have a specific subgenre for this post-subgenre when we don't for other post-xxx combinations & the fact that it meant we had a cross-clan subgenre was really annoying too so I'm pleased to be done with it to be honest.
Maybe. But there are very few "post" subgenres of metal that I really take seriously. But as I've said before, if they're missing the sludge then I just won't call it atmo-sludge. Biggest example is Rosetta. Too atmo, not sludgy enough. There needs to be more "truth" to the "post" tag for post-metal as well, which is where bands like Solstafir come in.
The only real change that may be worth considering in future is the addition of epic doom metal as a sub-genre as I am coming to the opinion that it has sufficiently divergent attributes to differentiate it from conventional doom.
Ben & I are still a bit on the fence about epic doom metal to be honest. We're certainly open to it if there's a majority who think it's necessary as it isn't a hard one to implement but can't think of an epic doom metal release that doesn't sit just as comfortably under a conventional doom metal tag. We're certainly not experts on the subgenre so could be wrong but most of the time it seems to be just the vocal style that makes these releases worthy of the "epic" prefix, is it not? I know the heavy metal influence is important but we find that in other doom metal bands too & they don't seem to be tagged as epic doom unless the vocal style is operatic/theatrical (see the early Trouble, Witchfinder General & Pentagram albums for example). Perhaps you could give us some examples of epic doom metal releases that you feel need to be separated from conventional doom metal to help justify this addition Sonny?
But as I've said before, if they're missing the sludge then I just won't call it atmo-sludge. Biggest example is Rosetta. Too atmo, not sludgy enough.
I agree on your Rosetta statement. You'll find a Hall of Judgement entry to go along with that too.
The only real change that may be worth considering in future is the addition of epic doom metal as a sub-genre as I am coming to the opinion that it has sufficiently divergent attributes to differentiate it from conventional doom.
Ben & I are still a bit on the fence about epic doom metal to be honest. We're certainly open to it if there's a majority who think it's necessary as it isn't a hard one to implement but can't think of an epic doom metal release that doesn't sit just as comfortably under a conventional doom metal tag. We're certainly not experts on the subgenre so could be wrong but most of the time it seems to be just the vocal style that makes these releases worthy of the "epic" prefix, is it not? I know the heavy metal influence is important but we find that in other doom metal bands too & they don't seem to be tagged as epic doom unless the vocal style is operatic/theatrical (see the early Trouble, Witchfinder General & Pentagram albums for example). Perhaps you could give us some examples of epic doom metal releases that you feel need to be separated from conventional doom metal to help justify this addition Sonny?
I'm not particularly bothered about it to be honest, Daniel, but yes the vocal style and obvious heavy metal influence are two features, although more accurately, to be termed epic doom I think power metal or USPM influences are required, rather than just heavy metal, hence the dividing line between epic doom and Pentagram / Trouble trad doom. I would also probably cite an increased inclusion of guitar solos as an indicator. I look at the black metal sub-genres and see pagan black metal and dsbm and other than lyrical content, I'm not sure either of these differ much from either conventional or atmospheric black metal, so personally I believe epic doom has at least as many, if not more, differentiators from conventional doom as either of those black metal genres do from conventional bm.
Smoulder's "Times of Obscene Evil and Wild Daring", Solstice's "White Horse Hill" and Khemmis' "Deceiver" are pretty good examples.
I guess ultimately it comes down to how much you want to differentiate sub-genres. as I said, I am no genre pedant and don't really care either way, I don't have sufficient technical knowledge to comment authoritatively on any technical differences between sub-genres, I just thought I would throw it out there and let those who are better informed decide if that was a way to go or not.