Special Horde removal judgement submission week: Day 4 - Persefone's "Core"

I have a hypothetical question for you Andi. If there was a progressive death metal subgenre, would you recommend that this release should sit under it?

Definitely! Here's what I think; there's an obvious difference between technical death metal and progressive death metal that some metalheads out there who think they're the same thing (WRONG) don't get. "Technical" has more focus on virtuosity of compositional capabilities, while "progressive" is all about new structures and sounds. Technical death metal has always been a death metal subgenre in The Horde with bands like the later Death, Atheist, Suffocation, and Pestilence. However, progressive death metal bands such as Between the Buried and Me, Opeth, Disillusion, Persefone are mostly in The Infinite, and it makes sense because while there are some death elements, the proof is in the progressiveness. So I say progressive death metal can be a subgenre to progressive metal and The Infinite with releases like Persefone's Core sitting there. Of course we would have to change the subgenre name so it doesn't get confused as a death metal subgenre instead of progressive metal. "Death-prog", anyone?

See, the reason I asked was to see if you actually think "Core" is a death metal based release or not but your response is still a little bit both ways. To me, the question is really about whether people need to know that a progressive record is based on death metal tools or not.

As a case study, I have two work colleagues that love progressive metal. One loves the cleaner traditional heavy metal based style of Dream Theater & can't deal with death metal vocals or intensity at all. The other one loves bands like Opeth & Meshuggah & can't stand the heavy metal based style with its operatic vocals. So the first question is whether there's a reason to differentiate these styles in the charts & on the evidence of that case I think you will agree that there is.

The second question is about how you handle the potential for progressive releases from all subgenres & the same can be said for avant-garde metal, industrial metal, post-metal, etc. If you're going to create a progressive death metal subgenre then you'd logically have to create a progressive black metal one & a progressive metalcore one & a progressive thrash one, etc, etc, etc. It would be a huge undertaking to manage logistically. It's also worth taking into account the fact that the progressive metal tag doesn't really serve its purpose as a standalone genre tag as the resulting record can sound like virtually anything. It's really just a descriptor for an existing base subgenre. Is it better to simply have each progressive release labelled with an additional subgenre tag to indicate the base sound given that we can filter our searches by multiple subgenres simultaneously? In this case we have "Core" which is essentially a highly progressive melodeath record. Would it seem out of place at the top of the progressive metal chart? Certainly not. But an equally important question is whether it would seem out of place at the top of the melodeath chart. Would "Images & Words" seem out of place at the top of the heavy metal charts or "Blackwater Park" at the top of the death metal charts? It's worth considering. As is whether there are heavy metal fans that don't like heavy metal based progressive metal & death metal fans that don't like death metal based progressive metal &, if so, is that demographic significant enough to not go down this path. Thoughts?

I think it's a good idea to differentiate the two different styles of progressive metal; the traditional melodic style of Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation, and the extreme death-ish style of Opeth and Meshuggah. That way, it would be easier to determine which bands a fan of one style but not the other would like. For example, I've already moved past most of the more melodic progressive metal style from my earlier epic metal taste, and I'm currently expanding on the more extreme side, so I would probably wanna continue finding those extreme progressive bands without stumbling upon the melodic ones that would've been more suitable for me like 5 years ago.

Progressive metal really is a genre that could easily blend with other metal genres because of how, well, progressive it is! In fact, pretty much half of the amount of bands I listen to are progressive in some way despite staying in their own genres in some or most of their albums. Edge of Sanity? Progressive. Enslaved? Progressive. After the Burial? Progressive. Coroner? PROGRESSIVE!!! So if we end up creating all the possible progressive metal subgenres, we would end up becoming the Prog Academy (sounds like a good progressive metal spin-off site we can make, just sayin')! The idea of just splitting progressive metal into a melodic side and an extreme side seems like a reasonable compromise to add to each progressive release so there wouldn't be that kind of trouble. And it can be possible for an album to be on both sides of progressive metal for anyone who wants the best of both worlds. "Images & Words"? Melodic progressive. "Blackwater Park"? Extreme progressive. "Core"? BOTH!! Finally, it's best for metalheads who like a metal genre but not progressive metal, whether or not it has elements of the genre they like, to stay in the clans they have. Progressive metal is a genre that should have its own sides without interfering with each other unless they feel up for that. Divided it stands!

I’m not sure you understood my angle Andi. I actually don’t want to split progressive metal into two. I’m suggesting that it might be better to treat it purely as a descriptor by tying each progressive release in with the subgenre that forms the basis of its sound. That would see Opeth sitting under progressive metal & death metal & Dream Theater sitting under progressive metal & heavy metal. That way you could conduct a search for progressive death metal by filtering by both progressive metal & death metal,

See, that’s kinda the problem. Many people are fine with death metal and heavy metal being secondary genres for Opeth and Dream Theater, and we don’t push them into primary genres. I mean, other than Opeth’s early 90s demos, I don’t think they would qualify as simply a death metal band. And is there anyone out there who thinks Dream Theater are traditional heavy metal? No! If those bands along with Between the Buried and Me, Meshuggah, Disillusion, and Persefone prefer to stay progressive metal without being pushed into a genre that they only have elements of, then that’s what it is. That’s why The Horde in Persefone’s Core has to go.

I've been having a think about your idea over the last 24 hours Andi & I think it's got potential, especially after relistening to "Core" a couple of times yesterday. I've since come to the realisation that "Core" wouldn't really sit terribly comfortably at the top of the melodic death metal charts. It's simply a different beast as it takes some of its progressive elements to extremes & rarely sits in traditional melodeath territory for too long. But it's also a very different beast to the cleaner & more mild-manoured Fates Warning or Queensryche style of progressive metal. I like your idea of utilizing an "extreme progressive metal" subgenre (like Metal Archives do) & think it would work perfectly well for "Core" as I don't actually think it fits nicely with any other subgenre but needs to be separated from the classic metal based brand of progressive metal. In saying that, I don't think "melodic progressive metal" works for the cleaner stuff because "Core" is also as melodic as fuck. I'd be more inclined to simply go with the one additional subgenre for the extreme stuff & leave the rest under "progressive metal (conventional)". If a release qualifies as "extreme progressive metal" but needs additional tagging to highlight that it's a black metal or a thrash metal release then additional tags can be added. If (like "Core") it veers too far away from your signature extreme metal sounds then it can simply retain the one "extreme progressive metal" tag. This approach would allow people to easily search for cleaner progressive metal without receiving any unpleasant surprises in the vocal & intensity departments & the same goes for fans of the more extreme end of town. It would also help people to isolate progressive black metal or progressive metalcore releases or any other combination if they chose to. The only thing that would need to be nutted out would be where to draw the line between the two. I'll speak to Ben & see if it's something we'll consider moving forwards. If it is, we may think about employing the same approach for some of the other more descriptive genre tags like "avant-garde metal".

And for the record, with the database in its current state I'll be voting yes on this Hall submission.

This release has been added to the Hall of Judgement.