The Ocean's "Anthropocentric", "Pelagial", and "Phanerozoic I: Palaeozoic" (also Instrumental version) should be removed from The Fallen

Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
First Post May 19, 2020 10:20 AM
Post #3019
Ben and I have been discussing the difference between Sludge Metal and Atmospheric Sludge. We've agreed that while it makes sense for Sludge Metal to be a Fallen genre because it's basically a more hardcore doom metal, Atmospheric Sludge is quite different as it focuses more on the experimental atmosphere of Post-Metal. A good example of Atmospheric Sludge is The Ocean. While The Ocean's first few albums ("Fogdiver", "Fluxion", "Aeolian", and "Precambrian") all have a sludgier sound mixed with their prominent post-/progressive elements, we can't say the same for their later Atmospheric Sludge albums since "Heliocentric". Therefore, I'm suggesting removing The Ocean's "Anthropocentric", "Pelagial", "Phanerozoic I: Palaeozoic", and "Phanerozoic I: Palaeozoic (Instrumental)" from The Fallen while their existing position in the Infinite. (Parts of Ben's quote in next post)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
May 19, 2020 10:22 AM
Post #3020
The question is...what do I do with Atmospheric Sludge?! I'm thinking that it will lock in The Infinite rather than The Fallen as both Daniel and I agree that Atmospheric Sludge is more Post-Metal than it is Sludge Metal. Anyone have an opinion on that?
Quoted Ben
Ben
Ben
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
June 25, 2020 02:14 AM
Post #3374

To be clear, my comments were only in relation to the Challenge lists, and not whether Atmospheric Sludge releases should be linked to both The Infinite and The Fallen. I'm pretty comfortable that releases that are correctly categorised as Atmospheric Sludge should be attached to both clans.

So to achieve what you're requesting, you'd need to The Ocean's albums to have the Atmospheric Sludge genre removed, and to have the Post-Metal genre instead. Is that what you're asking for?

Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
June 25, 2020 03:57 AM
Post #3378

Actually looking back at this now, even though Atmospheric Sludge is closer to post-metal than sludge, some of the sludge metal elements that dominated the first half of The Ocean's career can still be found in their second half, both the hardcore and atmospheric kinds. And...well this might sound a little biased, but ever since gaining The Fallen clan, I'm starting to feel kinda uncomfortable about giving up The Fallen position for half of The Ocean's discography, in case one day I feel like expanding my Fallen horizons a little bit into sludge. So now I say we put this request on hold for now, at least until more members have a say in this. The submission is temporaily off!

Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
October 01, 2020 10:22 AM
Post #4402
Hi Ben, I decided that this submission is back on! Daniel PMed me saying that the reason he didn't include my Solstafir track submission in October's Fallen playlist is because, beside it being too long, the album that track was in doesn't qualify as part of The Fallen. I was confused because I remember that album having The Fallen as one of its clans with the Sludge Metal label at that time, and now it's gone! I'm guessing you took it out of The Fallen without putting it in the Hall of Judgement because the Atmospheric Sludge Metal tag no longer meets the RYM 2:1 ratio criteria and it doesn't really sound like any kind of sludge at all. And you know what, I agree with you and Daniel! That album is basically post-/progressive metal with the last few fragments of their earlier black metal instrumentation (such as the last 3 minutes of that song I submitted, "I Myself the Visionary Head"). Yeah, it's clear that Solstafir is not, I repeat, NOT sludge metal by any means. The only Solstafir album left to have the sludge metal label is Svartir Sandar, and for the same reasons as those Ocean albums, I'd like that album taken out of The Fallen as well. Once again, I'm suggesting removing The Ocean's "Anthropocentric", "Pelagial", "Phanerozoic I: Palaeozoic", and "Phanerozoic I: Palaeozoic (Instrumental)", and Sólstafir's "Svartir Sandar" from The Fallen while keeping their existing position in the Infinite.
Daniel
Daniel
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
October 01, 2020 11:35 AM
Post #4409

There's a key word in the term "private message" Andi & it seems that you're not fully across it's relevance.

Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
October 01, 2020 12:19 PM
Post #4411
Sorry Daniel, just trying to make a point here. I'll delete that "PM" from this thread...
Ben
Ben
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
October 21, 2020 03:42 AM
Post #4589

There have been times when I've altered the clans of releases after finding I'd made a mistake during the original entry, or when I see that voting at RYM has swung dramatically since the original entry (which is often days after a release comes out and therefore not necessarily accurate). One thing I make sure not to do though is to change the genres / clans of any release that already has at least one rating / review. If someone has taken the time to listen to an album and rate / review it, I don't think I should be altering the clan it belongs to without entry into the Hall of Judgement. So that's my general rule.

As with the Katatonia request, can you please select what you consider to be the clearest case for removal from The Fallen? We'll push that one through and see how it goes.

Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
October 21, 2020 05:43 AM
Post #4592
Once again, this whole debate over whether or not Atmospheric Sludge Metal should be both a Fallen and Infinite genre or just the Infinite is spiraling out of hand, and I'm torn between which position these Atmospheric Sludge albums should really stay on. With my fast expanding ambient sludge interest, I don't know why I should keep bothering with what the subgenre really is. I just wanna be able to enjoy this genre and explore more within the genre without pulling hard on its strings. So I'd like all albums mentioned here canceled out of this submission, with the sole exception of Solstafir's Svartir Sandar. That album is just pure post-metal/rock, and overall, Solstafir is not, I repeat, NOT sludge metal by any means. With that, the only release I'm submitting is Sólstafir's "Svartir Sandar", to be removed from The Fallen while keeping its existing position in the Infinite.
Ben
Ben
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
October 21, 2020 11:51 PM
Post #4594

Sólstafir's Svartir Sandar has been added to the Hall of Judgement.

Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
Shadowdoom9 (Andi)
The Gateway The Infinite The Revolution The Sphere
October 22, 2020 12:59 AM
Post #4598
Thanks Ben!
Daniel
Daniel
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
August 27, 2022 11:38 AM
Post #12060

I've decided to pass the Hall entry to have Sólstafir's "Svartir Sandar" removed from The Fallen due to the fact that it would no longer qualify for inclusion in the clan if it was to be added to the database today & also because it has a clear majority of 5-1 voting YES in the Hall of Judgement.

Rexorcist
Rexorcist
The Guardians The Infinite The Pit
August 27, 2022 03:02 PM
Post #12061

From what I looked up in the halls section, this marks the first finished hall for the Fallen.

Daniel
Daniel
The Fallen The Horde The North The Pit
August 27, 2022 08:09 PM
Post #12070

Yes, that's true. As you can probably tell, I've been trying to drum up some interest in the Hall of Judgement of late as it's an integral part of the site.