The Rock Thread

Steve Hiett - "Down on the Road by the Beach" (1983)

The debut album from an English artist whose sound I would describe as being ambient surf music, predominantly produced on an electric guitar in an instrumental fashion. Hiett's unique brand of art is certainly relaxing & there's no doubt that you can feel the links with surfing throughout as this record would be a perfect fit for casual wind-downs as the sun comes down after an enjoyable day catching waves. There are a few cheesier, new agey moments but I've mostly enjoyed "Down on the Road by the Beach" regardless.

For fans of Lewis, Insides & Oh, Yoko.

3.5/5

Mike Oldfield - "Ommadawn" (1975)

I grew up with Mike Oldfield's classic 1973 debut album "Tubular Bells" being played regularly around our household as my father was quite a fan. I struggle with his third album "Ommadawn" a bit though with the two lengthy pieces traversing a real mixed bag of sounds & textures. The progressive rock of Oldfield's roots is further diluted with a Celtic new age sound that borders on the cheesy a bit too often for my taste while there are also traces of progressive electronic to be found here & there. I do quite enjoy "Ommadawn Part Two" but the slightly longer "Ommadawn Part One" is more challenging as its highlights are overpowered by its weaknesses, subsequently leaving me feeling like I'll perhaps never fully appreciate this record which was quite significant & highly regarded amongst the prog rock crowd of the mid-70's.

For fans of Alan Parsons, David Arkenstone & Jon Anderson.

3/5

Ommadawn is #350 in my top 500 right between Alive 2007 and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.  You need a little cheese to properly get into prog, IMO, as much of it is rooted in classical cheese.  Of course, this is coming from a guy who owns Meat Loaf's biography.  Ommadawn showcases a flawless combination of Oldfield's strongest traits.  I've heard a decent deal of new age already, so it's easy to compare him to acts like McKennit, Vangelis, Enya, Yanni and Arkenstone.  His atmospheres are perfect from flying you right into the middle of nature while being able to show off instrumental prowess without making it feel like "showing off."

You need a little cheese to properly get into prog, IMO, as much of it is rooted in classical cheese.

I don't think that's the case at all Rex. But then it's already been well established that you have a much higher threshold for cheese than I do so I guess that's hardly surprising. I enjoy myself some new age music on occasion but the cheesier Celtic end of the spectrum is often too much for me.

You need a little cheese to properly get into prog, IMO, as much of it is rooted in classical cheese.

I don't think that's the case at all Rex. But then it's already been well established that you have a much higher threshold for cheese than I do so I guess that's hardly surprising. I enjoy myself some new age music on occasion but the cheesier Celtic end of the spectrum is often too much for me.

But that's on new age music, and not all new age is cheesy.  This is also about prog.  Cheesiness is an aspect that can be done just as properly as something more serious.  And of course, there are cases where the balance is much more noticeable, such as the different between Solaris's two albums, 1990 which doesn't maintain a balance between the electronics and classical as well as it should, and Nostradamus which features all the same elements tamed for a more cinematic and emotional approach, displaying incredible maturity after one album.  Cheesiness can also get in the way, but it can also be an instrument in its own right.  I guess the finest example would be the difference between Bat Out of Hell and Space Jazz.

Of course, as an aspiring critic I learned early on to show absolutely no prejudice towards any genre, which includes accepting the genre for what it is and judging based on the standards you receive from some key releases.  This is why I often start out with fairly popular albums in the genre to wet my beak before heading to the raw classics.  Now in Celtic new age's case, I had already been a fan of Celtic Woman since I saw the PBS special when I was 10.  Comparing them to Enya and Clannad before going to McKennitt and Oldfield made things extremely easy.  There's real seriousness and professionalism in the latter two which may be drowned out for those who haven't gone on an educational binge for the genre.

Now 7/10 was the rating I originally gave to Master of Puppets when I first started albumming 12.5 years ago.  After exploring more thrash, that all changed.  And lemme tell you, Celtic new age can be the best thing for a stressful day, if you're willing to try and get into multiple genres.  Moving from hard rock to Arcade Fire, jazz, even some ambient, EDM, it's been the best ride of my life.

I have a pretty reasonable understanding of the subgenre Rex as almost all of the artists you mentioned were played around our family home when Ben & I were young. I disagree that we should put our own personal taste preferences & prejudices aside when rating a release though. On the contrary, I believe that a rating should solely be a reflection of how much you enjoy a release when compared to every other release in existence, otherwise it comes across as disingenuous as it's not a true reflection of the reviewer's feelings. It's like me saying "if I liked folk metal then this release would be the pinnacle" & awarding it five stars when the fact is that I enjoy even a subpar death metal release over the most highly regarded folk metal records. That's why we have this whole clan system in the first place i.e. so that we can voice our honest opinions without tainting the potential for a release to appeal to others. That's just my two cents though so please take it for what it is.

I have a pretty reasonable understanding of the subgenre Rex as almost all of the artists you mentioned were played around our family home when Ben & I were young. I disagree that we should put our own personal taste preferences & prejudices aside when rating a release though. On the contrary, I believe that a rating should solely be a reflection of how much you enjoy a release when compared to every other release in existence, otherwise it comes across as disingenuous as it's not a true reflection of the reviewer's feelings. It's like me saying "if I liked folk metal then this release would be the pinnacle" & awarding it five stars when the fact is that I enjoy even a subpar death metal release over the most highly regarded folk metal records. That's why we have this whole clan system in the first place i.e. so that we can voice our honest opinions without tainting the potential for a release to appeal to others. That's just my two cents though so please take it for what it is.

Certainly not.  Awareness of how another genre operates allows you to learn about those standards and eventually come to a reasonable consensus.  It takes practice as literally every genre does.  It's possible to like at least one album in a genre you don't like.  Example, my least favorite genre is drone, but the works of Tim Hecker have touched me in ways most musicians, even great ones, have failed to do so, while still holding true to the base technical criteria (if nor more so) that is demanded from the tech perspective.  This is why I have an honest top 100 that holds practically every genre imaginable, save drone simply because Tim Hecker was recently kicked out and I haven't thoroughly explored drone the way I have, say, symphonic prog, which I've recently put together a top 100 of 9/10 minimums for.  This doesn't mean I'll never explore it, though.  There is certainly nothing disingenuous about attempting to train yourself in this awareness.  I have absolutely no intention of being dishonest.

It didn't take me long to rely on my criteria while acknowledging personal experiences.  If a strong personal vibe can be achieved through the experience, even if you wouldn't call it a favorite, you can still greatly acknowledge the experience you were given.  This is how I avoid discrimination.  And yes, there will be times where I may need to re-evaluate albums due to changed standards.  In fact, I re-evaluated several Pink Floyd albums last week after having discovered Banco, and I'm overdo on re-evaluations of Never Mind the Bollocks, the first two Oasis albums and a few others.  But if you have a willingness to explore everything, then it should be maximized.  This is what led me to create a decent top 100 for doom, and good top 100's for death and black, all outside of my clans.

I love it when you get all condescending & elitist Rex, looking down on all of us mere mortals from above. It makes me feel all warm & fuzzy. My point stands though as nothing you said attempts to combat it. In my world, a rating is simply a numerical representation of how much you enjoy a release in comparison to all other music you've heard. Enjoyment is the only criteria that matters. Not originality, variety, cultural impact, whether it's the best example I've heard from its subgenre or any other element. It's all about how many jollies it gives me. That's how I see it & you can feel free to disagree with me at your leisure.

It's probably worth mentioning that labelling Tim Hecker as a drone artist is stretching the truth a bit too. That's probably why you like him more than artists with a genuine claim to the tag.

I've been trying to evaluate how I feel about this discussion. It's difficult, because I can't say that I'm enjoying it all that much, but at the same time it feels like an important conversation. When I think about it further though, it's not particularly original, as I feel like it's a discussion that's been had many times on this site before. Maybe I need to spend more time reading other discussions similar to it before I can truly grasp its quality. Hmmmm... has anyone put together the top 100 discussions of all time? That would super helpful, although given I didn't particularly enjoy this one all that much, it might not be worth the dedication, no matter how worthy the cause is. But then what if a discussion is really good, but it's not on a topic that interests me very much. Should I rate it down due to its content even though it's actually a fantastically thought out and executed discussion? This makes me think that perhaps there is no right or wrong way to judge the quality of a discussion. Maybe, just maybe, it would be best to let everyone rate discussions however they choose to, as what they think about any given discussion isn't really impacted by what someone else thinks.

Nice one Ben. My thoughts exactly. Ironic that it isn't in a metal thread though.

Maybe we should start a thread rating our top 100 raters.

I love it when you get all condescending & elitist Rex, looking down on all of us mere mortals from above. It makes me feel all warm & fuzzy. My point stands though as nothing you said attempts to combat it. In my world, a rating is simply a numerical representation of how much you enjoy a release in comparison to all other music you've heard. Enjoyment is the only criteria that matters. Not originality, variety, cultural impact, whether it's the best example I've heard from its subgenre or any other element. It's all about how many jollies it gives me. That's how I see it & you can feel free to disagree with me at your leisure.

It's probably worth mentioning that labelling Tim Hecker as a drone artist is stretching the truth a bit too. That's probably why you like him more than artists with a genuine claim to the tag.

What the hell was that about?  I'm literally talking about something that I love and am attempting to have a conversation.  I happen to legitimately like cariety and originality, and I never said anything about cultural impact.  You've known for a long time that I get bored with samey albums.  And just so you know, he's voted as drone all the time on RYM.  How DARE you talk like that.  Boss or not, that was fifty kinds of rude.  You're literally acting like I was never allowed to have a different criteria from you to begin with.  If you weren't the head honcho here, I'd report you.  I never said I was better than you.  I was speaking my beliefs, and you allowed me to do that.  I was having a happy conversation with you until you misguidedly assumed I was trying to condescend to you.  I don't know the name of the Martian who came down to you and taught you that line of thinking, but I love talking about ratings and reviews.  I am literally here for that.

I love being a critic, and I treat all genres fairly because I want to treat all artists fairly.  That means I treat the original stuff YOU create fairly, too.  There isn't a single album in my top 200 that didn't amaze me ON THE STANDARDS OF THE GENRES, so don't go acting like I've been faking my way through these forums for the last twelve years.

I love variety.

I love making lists.

I love talking about music.

Are you all going to criticize me for that?  HOW DARE YOU.  You invite people who love music here.  I am autistic.  I do things MY way, and who gives a damn if it's normal or not?  And yes, you can do things you way, but you never wrote a rule that says I can't help you to enjoy a new kind of music, and you never wrote one that says I have to rewrite a list of 15000 ranked albums just because I don't do things your way.  That is all I was trying to do, and you will not speak out for me by trying to rewrite my intentions.  If you're gonna burn me at the stake, lemme know so I can leave my will and testament to leave everything I owe to you because you're just that painfully hurt from me talking about what I love.

All you could've said was, "If I didn't get into it then, I'm likely not going to get into it now" and left it at that.  I would've accepted that, and since I'm the first to think about it, what does that say about your behavior towards me?  And what, in any possible universe, is wrong with a guy suggesting you open yourself to a new world of music?  Tell me how learning to love a new genre is a negative?  Tell me how it's so painful, please do.  Tell me how it's so horribly rude to even suggest that.

You're the one who turned a friendly suggestion into an entitlement issue and a rank issue.  You wanna play that game?  Let's play.  You can say you heard it as a kid and didn't get into it, but that doesn't mean you gave it a proper shot.  The distance between now and the first time you did something is NOT the same thing as experience.  Anybody can spend thirty years being familiar with a concept, but the actual time spent trying to study it is what matters.  So if you say you're not into it and I say I am and I say something that suggests it's a better genre than you think, you deliberately told me that there's something I accomplished that you didn't.  And then you get mad at me suggesting to you the way I went about it and detailing it for you?  So much for this place being called "Academy" if the creator isn't gonna bother learning new things.  Your limited clan system defeats the very idea that a person can love music as a whole.  I played along with the clan system because I wanted an account, but I grew to love other metal genres on this site, and you're trying to deny me that.  Totally hypocritical.  You deliberately said there's something I achieved that you didn't, and I suggested a way for you to achieve it.  Period.  Etc. Bottom line, all its variants on a silver platter.

I haven't been this mad on the forums in years.  Congratulations, Daniel.  You achieved something nearly impossible at this point.

Rex, despite what Ben may think, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a passionate conversation about musical appreciation & I didn't appreciate being mocked for it by him earlier in the thread either to tell you the truth. People will always place value on different things & have a right to express that openly as long as they're doing it in a respectful way. If others don't wanna read it then they can feel free to go about their days & we shouldn't be made to feel guilty for using the forums for what they're intended for. But let me be very clear that you can come across as talking down to others in the way that you express your musical opinions at times. The fact is that literally ALL of our regulars are obsessive with their musical journeys like yourself. They ALL indulge & involve themselves really deeply in the music they choose to explore so you're not isolated in that respect.

The truth of the matter is that I have just as broad a taste profile as yourself & spend a significant amount of active listening time with every release I listen to in order to get a deep enough understanding of the artistic expression to develop a well-informed opinion. I'm reasonably well across the new age genre too so it annoyed me that you automatically assumed that I haven't given new age music a proper chance & that I have a bias that's hindered my ability to make an informed judgement on the release in question. In doing so, you came across like you felt you needed to teach me about music appreciation & this isn't the first time that it's happened either so it got me offside pretty quickly. You may not think you did that but when I express my opinion & you start your response with "Certainly not" & then proceed to tell me that it takes practice & an "awareness of the genre" to appreciate a release like the one I was referring to then you can expect the recipient of your comments to take it that way. I knew it wasn't intentional which is why I toned down the responses I really wanted to write but I'm not gonna lie & pretend that I don't find statements like that to be patronizing & condescending.

Anyway... I don't wanna argue as I have better things to do with my time but I hope that you can accept what I've said & we can move on amicably because we do value you here at the Academy. Let's move on from this conversation now & get back to enjoying music together mate.

I assumed you haven't been educating yourself in Celtic new age exclusively, not in new age as a whole.  I remember you talking about new age as a whole, and remember that you said it was the Celtic stuff that you had difficulty with.  And if we all have an obsession with it, then I see no reason for me to be called out.  Perhaps the phrase "certainly not" seemed demanding, but even if I compare one user's awareness of a specific genre towards my own of the same genre, this is not the same thing as comparing the whole of two users' musical knowledge.  For all I know, you've heard 50,000 albums, but I'm still proud of the 1500 I've heard.  I do have my favorites, but they are strictly for musical fun rather than the education I put myself through.  And some of my favorites have obvious flaws to them, like the overlength of Bat Out of Hell II which I have to address as a technical issue if I'm being perfectly honest.  If you struggle with something, then there's a part of me that wishes to suggest an alternative outlook and method into approaching it.  This is what lead me to favorite albums from outside my comfort zone, including Music for the Jilted Generation, Celtic Woman for the nostalgia and especially Graceland.  If I talk about my own traits that I view as skills, then I expect the rest of the community to boast the same pride because we're all trying to educate ourselves.  But we all have weak points as well.  Example, I'm grossly uneducated in drum and bass as well as country, which I've struggled to get into.  But I'm still going to give them another shot someday.  I expect the same pride from other users here, especially the veterans, and I'd never complain as it is never my intention to challenge another user's pride.

But I do have to wonder, if you could give a Celtic new age album 5.0, what would it be?  I assume one that feels less cheesy.

I don't dish out the full five stars very often Rex as there are very few releases in music as a whole that I regard as being perfect. I doubt very much I'd find a Celtic new age release that I'd be tempted with but it would certainly have to omit the cheese & the moments that see me thinking of a cross between Christmas music & Riverdance (which is a comparison I found myself drawing upon during "Ommadawn" on a couple of occasions).

I noticed, but I figured it didn't hurt to ask.  I guess in your case it would be more appropriate to see if you have one of those top tens.

I guess in your case it would be more appropriate to see if you have one of those top tens.

Not as yet but it would be an interesting undertaking at some point.

I guess in your case it would be more appropriate to see if you have one of those top tens.

Not as yet but it would be an interesting undertaking at some point.

It's that interesting undertaking that drives me.

The Byrds - "Fifth Dimension" (1966)

I quite enjoy the third album from this Los Angeles outfit who had previously played in the poppy folk rock space but this time appear with a brand-new sound that may well represent the first psychedelic rock release ever to see the light of day. There are a few duds spread across the eleven tracks on offer but they're comfortably outweighed by the stronger material with the incredible "I Come and Stand at Every Door" being the clear highlight for me personally.

For fans of Dusty Springfield, Jefferson Airplane & Love.

3.5/5