Do we need a Kawaii Metal genre/subgenre?

RYM recently added a new subgenre called Kawaii Metal to their database which is described as follows:

"Kawaii metal is a Metal subgenre fusing heavy instrumentation with contrastingly cutesy, melodic vocal arrangements indebted to J-Pop. The genre contrasts an often heavy/extreme sound with aesthetics and lyrics common in Japanese idol music. Artists of this style tend to overlap with the larger Alt-Idol movement, which attempts to subvert rigid idol music traditions using influences from Punk, alternative, and metal.

Kawaii metal artists draw from an eclectic range of metal subgenres, incorporating the guitar-heroism of Power Metal, the energetic driving sound of Trance Metal, the mechanical approach of Industrial Metal, and even at times extreme metal styles, among other genres. The metallic approach is augmented by heavy influences from Pop and Electronic styles, creating a unique fusion. In the visual and theatrical aspect, kawaii metal takes inspiration from the aforementioned idol pop style, incorporating visual spectacle into live performances via flashy costumes and choreographed dance moves.

In 2010, the talent agency and record label Amuse Soft Entertainment would bring together the future members of the band BABYMETAL initially as a sub-unit of さくら学院 [Sakura Gakuin], but BABYMETAL quickly outgrew them as they became more popular and eventually coined the term "kawaii metal" to describe their music. Thanks to their success, they would soon reach world fame and media would started labelling other groups kawaii metal who had a similar style to BABYMETAL, such as デスラビッツ [DESURABBITS], LADYBABY, and later on acts like Deadlift Lolita and BABYBEARD."

The genre is still used fairly minimally but I wanted to see what people's feelings on it are. Is it worth considering for inclusion here? If so, why? As a genre in its own right or a subgenre of an existing genre? What clan would it most logically fit under? Generally, we would only include niche subgenres like this one if we felt that fans of the main genre may not be ok with the defining elements of the sound which means that it helps to give people a differentiator.

Kawaii metal might be a problematic genre to add to Metal Academy, for a few reasons. 1. There are very few releases of the genre in RYM, only 88 of them. 2. Kawaii metal is a little more of a "scene" genre, being almost entirely based in Japan, and some of us have struggled with where those kinds of genres stand here, which is why I don't count Neue Deutsche Härte as a subgenre in my Sphere playlists. 3. Based on all that I've listened to from the genre (a few Babymetal songs, "Idol of Death" by Candye♡Syrup, and I guess Clarity by Passcode can be considered Kawaii metal as well), it sounds more closely related to trance metal, with a similar instrumental vibe to Amaranthe in terms of blending melodic modern metal sounds in a trance-powered cauldron, and we already got rid of trance metal because its releases are too different-sounding from one another to qualify as a genre. Kawaii metal certainly wouldn't fit in The Revolution where trance metal used to be, and although despite "the guitar-heroism of Power Metal" and "the mechanical approach of Industrial Metal", it probably won't stand a chance in their respective clans either. But considering the prominent modern alternative influences, it might work in The Gateway, I guess? I don't know. Quite a tough call. Anyone here experienced with the genre, what do you think?

Well, I will say that, even if we don't create a new Kawaii Metal genre or subgenre for the Academy, we need to find a way to handle a release that is just tagged as Kawaii Metal with no links to other existing genres or subgenres as I have no doubt that most releases with this tagging are metal releases of some sort. Personally, I feel that you could create a metal record where the base sound sits in any of the clans & layer j-pop over the top of it & it would always offer appeal to the same niche audience while alienating the rest of the metal crowd at the same time. The Yuyoyuppe "SICK" E.P. I checked out last week is a good example of that. Its instrumentation is clearly built on deathcore but I can't see members of The Revolution taking too kindly to it & subsequently don't think it sits right as a part of that clan. I feel that it would be better suited to the cross-pollination-centric environment of The Gateway & I had the same feeling about "BABYMETAL". The Candye♡Syrup record wasn't a good case study as it's not really a metal record & is more of an electronicore release so I don't feel that its Kawaii Metal tagging is correct. I mean, if it's not a metal release then it can't be Kawaii Metal, right?

One of the main drivers for approving a new subgenre is the question of whether it is worth segregating & a good way to determine that is to ask the question of whether there are people that like the main genre but would hate Kawaii Metal releases. In this case, I'm gonna have to suggest that this would be the case with Kawaii Metal. The other driver is whether the subgenre has clear definition & I also feel that Kawaii Metal does because you certainly know it when you hear it. My gut feel here is that we're probably best to add Kawaii Metal as a subgenre of Alternative Metal in The Gateway but I should perhaps give a few more Kawaii Metal releases a spin before making any firm decision on it. A deep dive is likely required here.

I think the answer is simple: a clan dedicated to punkish or electronic high energy.

"Artists of this style tend to overlap with the larger Alt-Idol movement, which attempts to subvert rigid idol music traditions using influences from Punk, alternative, and metal."

That's Babymetal for you.

On top of that, lemme just say that a part of me associates the deathcore scene with more extreme alt-metal bands because the two have seemed to draw many of the same fans outside internet culture and in general outside metal conversation.  What with their connections to trance metal and trancecore, two genres that often incorporate metalcore vocals and riffs, I don't really see why kawaii metal shouldn't belong under the Revolution other than for a little discomfort among "trve" metalcore fans.  But with so few releases in this genre, it begs the question as to whether or not this is a scene or just a temporary fad that never really kicked off the way a good genre does.

On top of that, this conversation practically goes hand in hand with the whole trance metal shebang.

"Tempo between 130 and 160 BPM, played with keyboards and metal instrumentation, sung with harsh and aggressive vocals including many clean melodic styles; regularly uses elements of Melodic Death Metal, Symphonic Metal, and Electronic Dance Music."

If we wanna compare this easily, the trance metal genre has over 160 studio albums on RYM while kawaii metal doesn't even have a full page of 40.  And since many of these releases have proven to be questionable, the logical conclusion would that we shouldn't really bother uploading the tags with the albums yet.  But if there are indeed releases solely tagged with either of these genres, then should we play it safe and temporarily upload the genres to the most appropriate clan(s) until further notice?  Because I don't wanna see the clans include a pink symbol of an anime girl's skull called "The Shojo.  We Will Squeal."

I think the answer is simple: a clan dedicated to punkish or electronic high energy.

"Artists of this style tend to overlap with the larger Alt-Idol movement, which attempts to subvert rigid idol music traditions using influences from Punk, alternative, and metal."

That's Babymetal for you.

Quoted Rexorcist

That sort of exercise would require a huge amount of time & money in order to cater for a very small subsection of metal releases with a niche audience that often sits outside of the metal scene. Do you think many of our members would want to be a part of that clan? I can't see it personally. I feel that our existing The Gateway clan is the best location for Kawaii Metal releases given that it's all about cross-pollination with non-metal genres & often in a more accessible way. I mean, it's not called The Gateway for nothing. I'd like to get exposure to more Kawaii Metal releases before reaching my final position on that though.

On top of that, lemme just say that a part of me associates the deathcore scene with more extreme alt-metal bands because the two have seemed to draw many of the same fans outside internet culture and in general outside metal conversation.  What with their connections to trance metal and trancecore, two genres that often incorporate metalcore vocals and riffs, I don't really see why kawaii metal shouldn't belong under the Revolution other than for a little discomfort among "trve" metalcore fans.  But with so few releases in this genre, it begs the question as to whether or not this is a scene or just a temporary fad that never really kicked off the way a good genre does.

I disagree. Sure, there are some (admittedly really bad) deathcore bands that play with stuff like trance & electronic music but they're in the extreme minority. The majority take an aggressive & brutal approach that sits on the polar opposite side of the metal spectrum to trance metal. In fact, in my trance metal deep dive I don't recall hearing any crossover with deathcore whatsoever. We had trance metal in The Revolution previously & it stood out like a sore thumb because a large portion of the releases had nothing at all to do with -core music. BABYMETAL's self-titled album was a prime example with its tracklisting showcasing mostly alternative metal, power metal & even death metal influences. The clans are setup to link genres that are likely to have the same fan bases more than they are similar sounds too. I could be wrong but I think The Gateway is far more conducive to housing fans of Kawaii Metal than The Revolution is.

On top of that, this conversation practically goes hand in hand with the whole trance metal shebang.

"Tempo between 130 and 160 BPM, played with keyboards and metal instrumentation, sung with harsh and aggressive vocals including many clean melodic styles; regularly uses elements of Melodic Death Metal, Symphonic Metal, and Electronic Dance Music."

If we wanna compare this easily, the trance metal genre has over 160 studio albums on RYM while kawaii metal doesn't even have a full page of 40.  And since many of these releases have proven to be questionable, the logical conclusion would that we shouldn't really bother uploading the tags with the albums yet.

I don't think this is a similar argument to Trance Metal to be honest. After performing my Trance Metal deep dive I discovered that Trance Metal doesn't really meet the criteria for being a genre in the first place given that the releases more often than not sounded nothing alike & the links to Trance were often tenuous to say the least. No one can tell me that BABYMETAL, Noidz & Mesarthim should be in the same genre or clan. They all have base sounds that fit into different existing clans & just have some trance elements layered over the top, not much in the BABYMETAL example either I have to say. Yes, Kawaii Metal does something similar with the J-pop component but, in my experience, it's a much more prominent feature that completely dictates who is going to enjoy the release & who is not so you can easily identify the releases as being from the one genre, even when the base instrumental sounds differ a bit. The minimal amount of releases is certainly a factor but it's probably more about whether there's any point in isolating a group of releases so that fans can search for them directly in our database. If we were to place all Kawaii Metal releases under the Alternative Metal (Conventional) subgenre then we would have releases from Tool, Deftones & Alice In Chains coming up in the same search. Does that sound like a good solution? I'm not sure it is whereas I'd be comfortable enough with rap metal bands like Rage Against The Machine) or funk metal artists like Primus coming up in that search under the same circumstances.

But if there are indeed releases solely tagged with either of these genres, then should we play it safe and temporarily upload the genres to the most appropriate clan(s) until further notice?  

That's the point of this conversation really i.e. to determine what the most appropriate clan is.

I think we should focus less on what would make users comfortable and just what's more logical.  Backlash from anyone involved in the Gateway or Revolution is to be expected, like Kawaii metal's the last guy picked for the basketball team.  Which means while the clans themselves aren't too large and these forums here aren't very active, we just have to bite the bullet and pick one.  Honestly, Gateway or Revolution seem like the two most logical ones.

While I'm a bit worried about checking out the "genre" myself, I'd like to add an artist in both alt-metal and metalcore that I personally found great if not occasionally brilliant: Utsu-P.

This album's tagged as alt-metal and melodic metalcore on RYM, but it's made of the same ingredients and genre tags found in other kawaii metal albums on RYM.  Vocals here my switch between J-pop and metalcore screams.  Here's one example of Utsu'P's sound:

Babymetal - Metal Resistance

Alternative Metal, Kawaii Metal
Power Metal, J-Pop, Trance Metal, Deathcore

You'll find many of them switching between alt-metal and metalcore influences as easily as J-pop and electronicore.  Also there's a bit of djent here and there, but let's not call this Infinite.

Actually, there are a couple similarities to cyber metal in some of the songs here.  If there's enough of a connection, I can also see this maybe reaching the Sphere for its electronic sound.  Mechanical and electronic would make a good theme.

Excellent choice on that Utsu-P song, Rex! A solid piece of alt-metalcore with Vocaloid vocals. One of my outside-world friends showed me another Utsu-P song that's pretty cool and exemplifies a bit of the alt-side of Kawaii metal:

I'm also kind of worried about checking out the "genre", so I don't plan on exploring Utsu-P and their album Renaissance just yet, but maybe someday.

I'm familiar with one song from Babymetal's second album Metal Resistance, and it's their collaboration with DragonForce, "Road of Resistance". This is a prime example of Kawaii metal's take on DragonForce's brand of speedy power metal, though I still don't expect Kawaii metal to be part of the Guardians:

I think we should focus less on what would make users comfortable and just what's more logical.

It's not about making people comfortable. It's about maintaining the integrity of the clan system. It's worth keeping in mind that the clan configuration is designed to ensure that our clan ratings are a reflection of the opinions of people who generally enjoy the genre in question. In order for that to work we need each subgenre to be in the clan whose members are most likely to enjoy it. It will never be perfect but we need to get it as close to it as possible.

That's what I'm saying.

"but I can't see members of The Revolution taking too kindly to it"

That quote is the only reason I mentioned it.

Kawaii metal is a little more of a "scene" genre, being almost entirely based in Japan, and some of us have struggled with where those kinds of genres stand here, which is why I don't count Neue Deutsche Härte as a subgenre in my Sphere playlists.

I'm not sure I agree to be honest. I think prime examples of genres being more "scenes" than genuine subgenres are the NWOBHM & (to a lesser extent) US power metal. The NWOBHM didn't have a well-defined sound with bands like Venom, Saxon & Witchfinder General all sounding vastly different to each other & arguably sitting in different genres altogether when considered outside of the movement. US power metal is similar but not so extreme in this respect. The other major issue with those subgenres is that only bands from those locations are eligible for entry due to their naming which is silly in my opinion.

I don't see Kawaii metal or Neue Deutsche Härte in the same light as they're generally used to group together bands with similar musical attributes. I mean, you certainly know Kawaii metal when you hear it & I always felt that the Neue Deutsche Härte tracks on The Sphere playlists stood out pretty obviously & sounded very similar to each other. Neue Deutsche Härte definitely suffers from being poorly named as it falls into the same camp as NWOBHM & US power metal in that it can really only be used by German bands but there's certainly a Neue Deutsche Härte sound that clearly differentiates itself from industrial metal as far as I can see so it'd work fine with a slight name adjustment.