Metal subgenre Big 4 bands

So last week I found a Loudwire article about 17 metal subgenres each having their own "Big 4" bands besides thrash metal: https://loudwire.com/big-4-bands-metal-subgenres/ Cool, right? However, it seems incomplete because not all the subgenres are included, and a few bands I don't think fit well in the categories they're put in. Then today I found this video:

Some of the subgenres and 4 of the most well-known bands of those subgenres mentioned in the video are actually notable enough that they should've ended up in the Loudwire list. Also today, I made my own Reddit account and decided to write about all this in a post, and even though I couldn't publish the post, I was able to save a draft that is only accessible for those to whom I've shared the link. With that, here's the link to my draft: https://www.reddit.com/user/shadowdoom9/draft/dfc0545c-684e-11ec-ba13-e6d471aac036

Please feel free to take a moment to review it and suggest any changes. And if you have any better "Big 4 bands" ideas for subgenres, discuss! 

Well, the whole Big Four of thrash metal concept is based around sales & commercial success. Is that the metric you're using here Andi?

I'm guessing that's how Loudwire made those "Big 4" subgenre lists, by listing the more commercially successful bands, and while that works well for most bands, a few I think fit better in the subgenres they're more recognized as, and the bands that I add in their place are the ones that practically every true fan of the subgenres has enjoyed or at least heard of along with truly representing the subgenre at times. Here are some examples:

The original symphonic metal list has bands that are some of the most commercially successful bands of that subgenre, but people seem to overlook an important aspect of the subgenre to go along with the commercial success, that aspect being its diverse development. In 1997, 5 bands began to bring symphonic metal into prominent ground, and many of them have done so by adding symphonic elements to an existing metal subgenre including the debut albums of Nightwish, Rhapsody of Fire (symphonic power metal), and Within Temptation (symphonic gothic metal), the second album of Emperor (symphonic black metal), and the third album of Septicflesh (symphonic death metal). While many of those albums don't have the symphonic metal tag or The Guardians clan (or have but don't deserve them), the combination of metal and symphonics would inspire countless bands to do the same, whether they're mainly symphonic metal or not, including symphonic death metallers Fleshgod Apocalypse whose success has greatly surpassed that of Septicflesh and is thereby staying in the list. Of course, there are some bands with one symphonic metal release before and during 1997 including Angra, Arcturus, Haggard, Rage, Skylark, and Therion. I chose Immortal as Emperor's possible replacement in the black metal list because of how well-received it is in the black metal fanbase that I would never join, and they're the first band I could think of because of the conversation in the black metal thread just now.

Mathcore is a better subgenre to describe Converge (although they helped with metalcore's early development in their first few albums) and The Dillinger Escape Plan, two of the main pioneers of mathcore that I've added to that subgenre's Big 4, along with fellow mathcore starter Botch and a later band The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza, all 4 of which, despite splitting up or moving away from the subgenre, helped shape mathcore to how it's meant to be. For the two possible replacements in the metalcore list, All That Remains and August Burns Red have both done their part in taking metalcore's success to a higher level with their respective 3rd albums, and while All That Remains would later add some melodic hard rock/alt-metal elements to their metalcore mix for most of their 2010s albums, August Burns Red would stay consistent with their semi-melodic metalcore greatness the subgenre's fanbase would love. And yes, they are two of my favorite metalcore bands. Facts first, opinions after!

Rammstein definitely has the right to be put into the industrial metal list, but Neue Deutsche Härte is the subgenre they have been known to help create and even have the term coined by the music press following the release of their 1995 debut. They have been put into the NDH list alongside bands that are prominent and represent the style well but not as highly successful; Oomph!, Megaherz, and Eisbrecher. My replacement suggestion for Rammstein in the industrial metal list is Godflesh, who sit next to Ministry as the pioneers of industrial metal and show what industrial metal is really made of to please its fans.

In conclusion, I honestly think that while I agree about the position the commercial successful bands are in, the bands that deserve as much recognition are those that the majority of fans know and enjoy, and represent the important aspects of those genres, such as elements and development. There shall be some balance in the metal-verse!

I honestly think that while I agree about the position the commercial successful bands are in, the bands that deserve as much recognition are those that the majority of fans know and enjoy, and represent the important aspects of those genres, such as elements and development.

But how is there any difference between "the commercial successful bands" & "those that the majority of fans know & enjoy", Andi? Surely those two things mean the same thing. Anyway... I like the topic as a point of discussion but would suggest that we only analyse one subgenre at a time so that we don't overcomplicate things.

Let's start with traditional heavy metal, shall we? I can see that Loudwire have gone with Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest & Ozzy Osbourne. I'd suggest that the first three are complete no-brainers as they're by far the most accomplished & dominant heavy metal bands in the history of metal music. The fourth position is open for discussion though. It's actually interesting when you think that Metallica have by far & away the highest selling heavy metal record of all time & Megadeth have also played a significant role in heavy metal since 1990 so there's a case for both. Should either of those be considered?  I tend to think that they've both played a more significant role in thrash metal & should be happy with their current positions in the Big Four of thrash. Other contenders in the popularity stakes might be Motorhead, Avenged Sevenfold, Dio, Queensryche, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Accept, King Diamond, etc. Personally, I'm happy with Ozzy. His US sales are a clear second to Metallica for metal overall with his debut solo record being primarily responsible for metal finally breaking through in the US in the early 80's (along with Judas Priest's "British Steel"). I would think that he'd have at least four records in the top 100 most well-known heavy metal records of all time too, not to mention his record for discovering killer guitarists. Thoughts?

Let's start with traditional heavy metal, shall we? I can see that Loudwire have gone with Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest & Ozzy Osbourne. I'd suggest that the first three are complete no-brainers as they're by far the most accomplished & dominant heavy metal bands in the history of metal music. The fourth position is open for discussion though. It's actually interesting when you think that Metallica have by far & away the highest selling heavy metal record of all time & Megadeth have also played a significant role in heavy metal since 1990 so there's a case for both. Should either of those be considered?  I tend to think that they've both played a more significant role in thrash metal & should be happy with their current positions in the Big Four of thrash. Other contenders in the popularity stakes might be Motorhead, Avenged Sevenfold, Dio, Queensryche, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Accept, King Diamond, etc. Personally, I'm happy with Ozzy. His US sales are a clear second to Metallica for metal overall with his debut solo record being primarily responsible for metal finally breaking through in the US in the early 80's (along with Judas Priest's "British Steel"). I would think that he'd have at least four records in the top 100 most well-known heavy metal records of all time too, not to mention his record for discovering killer guitarists. Thoughts?

Metallica and Megadeth are already well-known for their thrash albums and better off staying in the thrash metal Big 4, same with Queensryche in the progressive metal list and Avenged Sevenfold in the NWOAHM list. While I'm also OK with Ozzy being part of the traditional heavy metal Big 4, Motorhead might be a slightly stronger contender because they're an important part of heavy metal in late 70s, a precursor to the NWOBHM and the band that united two separate rock genres, punk and metal, into a mix that would inspire later genres such as speed metal and thrash metal. A lot more people would've recognized that band as heavy metal if it wasn't for Lemmy's modesty. They're much more than "rock and roll", seriously! Dio would also be a good contender for the fourth position if any of their other singles are as popular as "Holy Diver".

To be fair Andi, the majority of Motorhead's material was actually closer to hard rock or blues rock than it was to metal. The links to metal are based mainly on some influential tracks & Lemmy's gruff vocal tone.

Back on the topic, Ozzy's solo material has sold well over 50 million copies versus Dio's 20 million & Motorhead's 15 million. If those three were on a festival lineup there's little doubt that Ozzy would be headlining as he's significantly more famous than the other two. Do Dio even qualify given that they're no longer active?

A quick question, excuse my ignorance. Who or what is Loudwire and should I care?

If you only want to list the most popular four artists in any genre then surely there is no discussion - facts is facts and all you need are sales figures.

It’s not important who Loudwire are Sonny as they’re clearly none of our business if their big fours are anything to go by. I just thought it’d be fun to hypothesise on who the biggest & most significant artists are for each subgenre anyway cause I’m a total nerd. The sales figures approach is likely only valid for the more commercial stuff as the data won’t be available for the smaller subgenres.

Especially for something like Traditional Heavy Metal, there are the big truths that come with the Big 4 in terms of mainstream popularity: 

• Everyone knows Black Sabbath started it all and everyone knows the riff to "Iron Man". 
• Everyone has a favorite Iron Maiden album, even if they haven't listened to one. 
• If someone doesn't know a classic Judas Priest song, they know "Painkiller", and they know the exact name of their vocalist. 
• Ozzy will still somehow be alive for another 50 years through sheer force of will. 

I don't think that any of the other bands that Daniel listed have that kind of staying power. If we wanted to be nerds about it I would obviously say Mercyful Fate because of how influential and ahead of their time they were, yada yada...but Ozzy is such an icon that you can't really ignore it. Dio is also an icon and I personally prefer Dio over Ozzy in terms of what he produced and his style, but the lead that Ozzy has over him is basically insurmountable considering when he passed away and how radio stations act like "Rainbow in the Dark" is the only song he ever made. 

Do Dio even qualify given that they're no longer active?

Given that Loudwire has included bands that have split up in the same year as Dio or earlier such as Death, Type O Negative, and Nasum, then yes, Daniel. Dio are acceptable.

It's staggering to think that Ozzy has sold as many solo albums as Judas Priest have across their career. I mean he's sold more than four times the amount of records that Iron Maiden have in America.

WTF?! Metallica's "The Black Album" has sold over 35 million copies & is still sitting at number 96 in the Billboard charts today. It's still selling over 30,000 copies a week in the US alone! It seems weird to not include them in a Big Four of heavy metal on that basis but I'd still prefer not to.

Ok I'm gonna call it as I think the data I'm seeing is pretty unanimous that Ozzy Osbourne is worthy of a spot given his enormous popularity & marketability so let's move on.

How about a Big Four of the New Wave Of British Heavy Metal then? Iron Maiden is obviously a given but what of the other three places? Here are the four main contenders as I see it:

Venom

Diamond Head

Angel Witch

Saxon

Feel free to add additional contenders if you think they should be in contention.

A good accurate list, Daniel!

If you want to use metrics such as record sales and recognition of an act outside of metal circles, then for NWOBHM you must consider Def Leppard (much as I dislike the band). They may not in hindsight have much to do with metal but, for better or worse,  they were very much part of the NWOBHM scene.

I've just checked Wikipaedia and their estimated record sales are 100 million - more than Genesis and David Bowie!

I chose to disqualify Def Leppard along with all of the other members of the NWOBHM community that have nothing to do with metal (Praying Mantis, Shiva, Girlschool, Saracen, Demon, White Spirit, Dark Star, Rock Goddess, Heavy Pettin, More, Ethel The Frog, etc.) simply because this is a metal website. Happy to include them if everyone thinks it's better.

Anyway, what would be your final three Sonny?

I've just checked Wikipaedia and their estimated record sales are 100 million - more than Genesis and David Bowie!

It's worth noting that if we were to include Def Leppard then we'd only be looking at the impact of their self-titled E.P., their debut album "On Through The Night" & their sophomore record "High 'n' Dry". "Pyromania" doesn't seem to be referred to as NWOBHM. The same goes for other enduring artists like Saxon. Let's assume that the NWOBHM was 1979-1983. 

Saxon for definite.

Then I would go for Diamond Head.

It's then a toss up for me between Angel Witch and Venom. Just because I have such fond memories of them I would go for Angel Witch and save Venom for speed metal. Venom were not actually much loved by the NWOBHM community and had the piss taken out of them quite a bit, being little more than a peripheral member of the NWOBHM and more of a regional phenomena in the North East, despite what media revisionists might tell you now. They were a little too extreme for 80/81 I suspect.

Anyway, I'm all for disbarring Def Leppard - I really dislike those motherfuckers.

Interesting. I think Venom have probably gone on to be second only to Maiden as far as notoriety & possibly even sales too thanks to the black metal movement. I'd be interested to see if that's really the case actually. Diamond Head was always gonna be in my four as they were just too important not to be in my opinion. I went with Saxon for my fourth spot, mainly because Saxon were the most prolific producer of high quality NWOBHM as opposed to Angel Witch who only released the one classic album during the movement.

I completely agree Daniel as far as latter day notoriety and sales go that Venom would have the edge. I was considering it more from the perspective of the time of the movement itself. 

To be honest, I'm not, and never have been, convinced that the NWOBHM should even be considered a genre. It was a localised scene / movement with a slew of bands that were influential on later acts but could be quite diverse musically. Maiden, Praying Mantis, Demon, Girlschool, Tank and Venom are all very different musically yet fall under the same banner. It is a complete misnomer too as few of the acts actually played heavy metal at all as you rightly pointed out 

Maybe as the premier metal website Metal Academy should drop NWOBHM as a genre.

What do you reckon?

We don't have it as a genre Sonny. Ben & I completely agree with you & decided that from the start.

Finally made my draft a public post! It's right here: https://www.reddit.com/user/shadowdoom9/comments/rw8mvq/my_thoughts_on_loudwires_big_4_bands_of_17_metal/