Metal Academy - requesting feedback

I would change nothing.  I don't always search by clan anyway and I am far too laidback to be concerned about things not necessarily sitting in the right place for me.  Like Sonny says, I feel the clans promote discussion amongst like minded fans and this is really important in a developing community.

I agree that The Sphere is a bit out of place, with notable Industrial Metal being few and far between. Even though it's an important genre for popular bands like Godflesh, Rammstein, and others like Fear Factory, I can't really see the use of the clan moving forward. I've listened to a lotta modern albums in the past 2 or 3 years, and I don't pigeonhole myself into certain Metal genres, and there have been next to zero notable Industrial Metal releases since 2017 apart from Rammstein's return album, which hardly categorizes as Industrial. 

If a change were to be made, I personally wouldn't mind pulling bands like Godflesh or Ministry into The Gateway, while putting Cyber or the more Electronic/Industrial side of The Sphere, like Sybreed, into The Revolution. I'm sure that there are examples where these categorizations don't quite hit the mark, but the blanket of "Alternative + Industrial Metal" might work out considering we're also talking about acts like Strapping Young Lad being moved around? 

I don't know whether or not to agree with Xephyr here. On the one hand, I can see how out of place The Sphere is because there's never really a lot of notable industrial metal. If anyone wants a list of all the super-notable bands of that genre, it would have to consist of all and only the ones Xephyr mentioned in that last comment; Godflesh, Rammstein, Fear Factory, Ministry, Sybreed, and Strapping Young Lad. And many other industrial metal bands sound closer to industrial or rock, which I guess is why they banned that genre from the Metal Archives. So it would make some sense to have the classic alternative-industrial metal bands in The Gateway and the modern cyber-electronic metal bands like Sybreed in The Revolution. On the other hand, the clans that are currently up are great symbols of their respective metal genres, and I'm not sure if sacrificing one of the clans and the amount of hard work that might result in would be worth it. I think we should just wait until the end of this year for any new industrial metal releases (requesting bands and albums helps), and see if The Sphere is an active or dead clan. The turning of the year will decide on a sacrifice or victory!

By the way, it's a few days until the 15th. You all wanna get rolling with your playlist suggestions?

Thanks for the reminder about the playlists. 

Just to make myself perfectly clear, I don't actually want to remove The Sphere, I think it makes sense the way it is, but just to play devil's advocate if a change were to be made, I would personally be okay with what I proposed.

Tell you what though, I'm going to intentionally mince Andi's words here and take his "The turning of the year will decide on a sacrifice or victory!" and take it upon myself to specifically check out a few Industrial releases from 2020. It's honestly making me curious as to what the genre is even like anymore, since it's been so quiet on RYM and other places I check for music. 

Looks like 2020 isn't such a quiet year for industrial metal after all. Here are some of the most recent industrial metal releases I've found in RYM, including a few of the more well-known bands of the genre and a couple well-known artists in general:

I think Xephyr's point is made by the low rating numbers on all but two of those new releases Andi.

Despite the low numbers, I actually think The Sphere is an appropriately configured clan. My experience with programming the various clan-specific playlists every month has given me a great insight into whether the entire subgenre sets are aligned & I think they are with The Sphere. In fact, before I kicked the playlists off I didn't actually think there was any valid reason for the existence of the Neue Deutsche Härte subgenre but I've since revised that view as I've found strong evidence that the releases tagged with that label possess unique attributes outside of the more generic industrial metal label.

The number of members shouldn't be the guiding reason for amalgamating clans & I don't hear much correlation between alternative metal & industrial metal from a musical sense to be honest. Splitting the industrial metal acts down the middle doesn't seem right either. I have no problem with the two different strands of industrial metal residing under the same label. They're clearly both still industrial metal in my opinion.

Sonny, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on where you think gothic metal should reside if not in The Fallen? I agree that it doesn't sit entirely comfortably there but I struggle to think of another clan that's more appropriate. It probably should be in the same one as symphonic metal though in my opinion. I actually don't see any reason why we should leave Cradle Of Filth releases in The Fallen. If we think they don't belong there (which I don't) then let's simply vote them out in the Hall of Judgement.

Sonny, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on where you think gothic metal should reside if not in The Fallen? I agree that it doesn't sit entirely comfortably there but I struggle to think of another clan that's more appropriate. It probably should be in the same one as symphonic metal though in my opinion. I actually don't see any reason why we should leave Cradle Of Filth releases in The Fallen. If we think they don't belong there (which I don't) then let's simply vote them out in the Hall of Judgement.

Daniel, I know you directed that question to Sonny, but as another gothic metal fan myself, I have some thoughts about whether or not that genre belongs in The Fallen, and I say it still does. Gothic metal originated from doom metal, especially for many bands starting off as doom/death-doom, such as Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Anathema (those first 3 bands forming the Peaceville Three), Type O Negative, Tiamat, Katatonia, The Gathering, and Theatre of Tragedy. However, gothic metal would later become a somewhat mainstream mix of heavy metal and gothic rock, with bands like Entwine and HIM. Gothic metal may be related to symphonic metal in some ways, whether a band mixes both genres together (Tristania), was originally gothic before switching to symphonic (Within Temptation), or just symphonic metal with some goth elements (Nightwish) but I'm not sure if that's enough to make gothic metal closer to symphonic than doom. I'm definitely not an expert in the knowledge of Cradle of Filth, let alone gothic black metal, but that one album from them I've listened to, Dusk...and Her Embrace, is already in the North as a black metal with symphonic gothic elements.

I am not actually advocating moving Gothic Metal out of The Fallen, as such. The problem with the genre, it seems to me, is that rather than being an out and out genre in and of itself, it seems more like a qualifier to other genres, in much the same way that "melodic metal" is and that doesn't have it's own genre does it? So, as such, we have gothic death doom, gothic black metal and so on in the same way we have melodic black metal, melo-death etc. I wouldn't even have a clue what a purely gothic metal release would sound like, or what would differentiate it from other metal genres other than aesthetically. Maybe those better qualified (I think I've made my disinterest in the genre apparent) could explain to me what makes a singular gothic metal release, rather than as a descriptor of the atmosphere of another genre? I know RYM and others treat it as a unique genre, but from my limited experience I think they are wrong and it should be used as a sub-genre of other, more definitive genres. If this was the case, releases would then reside under the clan of the relevant major genre.

This is all hypothetical if course, I don't expect or even want anything to change, but I think it's a point worth making.

I disagree actually Sonny. I'm not much of a fan of gothic metal myself but I can certainly discern a signature gothic metal sound that's more prominent than the other components in many releases that fall under that label. Sure there are those releases that are hybrids of several subgenres but that's no different to blackened death metal, blackened thrash, deathgrind, progressive thrash, etc. & it doesn't mean that the original component is not worth highlighting. I think the main reason for the confusion around what constitutes a gothic metal release is once more the inaccuracies of the tagging on sites like RYM which allow for people that aren't well versed in that style of music to have a significant impact on its genre tagging results. Death doom metal is inherently gothic. Labelling it as gothic metal is irrelevant in my opinion. The same can be said for a lot of black metal. If the strongest component is death metal or black metal then gothic metal should only ever be a secondary subgenre. Here at Metal Academy we have the opportunity to get that right through the Hall of Judgement. If you don't think that a release should fall into a certain clan then it's likely that others will agree & we encourage you to make a Hall submission.

If I had the ability to strip back all the genres and rebuild them, I'd take out descriptive terms altogether. I know that might sound weird, but stay with me. The issue with genre names like Gothic Metal and Symphonic Metal is that people will always apply them to releases that they feel have gothic or symphonic elements in the truest sense. Progressive Metal is no better, as any album that has anything that anyone considers to be "progressive" will be tagged that way.

Genres are useful when they allow fans of distinctive sounding releases / bands to find more music that's similar in style. Being recommended a death metal album that has a symphonic element when your a fan of Epica or latter-day Therion just isn't helpful. Being recommended Negura Bunget's OM when you're a fan of Dream Theater is also unlikely to result in a happy experience.

It's for this reason that I think genre names like Death Metal and Black Metal are great. They fit the sound and thematic tendencies without resulting in loads of releases being incorrectly tagged as them due to the names. No-one is thinking "this album has lots of death in it, so it must be a death metal album".

In a way this is one of the reasons I designed Metal Academy. The clans give us a different way to think about music classifications. The question of whether or not a release fits snugly into a specific genre isn't as relevant here as  questions like "does this release feel right in it's current clan(s)". If it doesn't then, I'd also question whether that release's genre tags are actually relevant. Cradle of Filth is a perfect example. Does calling it Gothic Metal achieve the goal of allowing fans of Paradise Lost to find music they will likely enjoy?

Actually, this is a very apt discussion, as I just ran a best Gothic Metal chart on RYM. Below is the result. Everyone happy with a Cradle of Filth album topping the list?

While I take your point, I'm sorry Daniel but I must disagree on one thing and that is that death doom is inherently gothic. Sure, a certain style of death doom is such, the My Dying Bride / Paradise Lost branch, but what about bands like Winter, Autopsy, Cianide, Ceremonium, Asphyx, Atavisma, Void Rot and the likes who have no gothic leanings whatsoever, but a much stronger death metal influence and a filthy, cavernous sound? In fact I sometimes wonder how some of these gothic death doom albums get tagged as death doom at all, having virtually no death metal DNA in them. Maybe these are actually gothic metal releases rather than death doom. Like I say, I am no expert as I find the whole gothic metal style tedious, so I am not advocating one way or another, but I do know what I hear and what I don't!

I am completely with you there Ben. If you are well-fitted to any particular clan as a fan, then I think you will have a feel for whether an album is a "fit" for that clan or not rather than getting bogged down in genre and descriptor minutiae, particularly as we seem to be leaning heavily on RYM which is notorious for mis-labelling metal genres.

Just as an aside, I don't have any kind of downer of CoF, I quite like a couple of their earlier albums, but I just can't picture them as a Fallen band I'm afraid.

While I take your point, I'm sorry Daniel but I must disagree on one thing and that is that death doom is inherently gothic. Sure, a certain style of death doom is such, the My Dying Bride / Paradise Lost branch, but what about bands like Winter, Autopsy, Cianide, Ceremonium, Asphyx, Atavisma, Void Rot and the likes who have no gothic leanings whatsoever, but a much stronger death metal influence and a filthy, cavernous sound? In fact I sometimes wonder how some of these gothic death doom albums get tagged as death doom at all, having virtually no death metal DNA in them. Maybe these are actually gothic metal releases rather than death doom. Like I say, I am no expert as I find the whole gothic metal style tedious, so I am not advocating one way or another, but I do know what I hear and what I don't!

Yeah that's a valid point. I should have included the prefix of "A lot of".

In a way this is one of the reasons I designed Metal Academy. The clans give us a different way to think about music classifications. The question of whether or not a release fits snugly into a specific genre isn't as relevant here as  questions like "does this release feel right in it's current clan(s)". If it doesn't then, I'd also question whether that release's genre tags are actually relevant. Cradle of Filth is a perfect example. Does calling it Gothic Metal achieve the goal of allowing fans of Paradise Lost to find music they will likely enjoy?

Actually, this is a very apt discussion, as I just ran a best Gothic Metal chart on RYM. Below is the result. Everyone happy with a Cradle of Filth album topping the list?

I'm not totally happy that a symphonic black metal album is dominating a best gothic metal chart list, especially since it has less ratings than those other 3 gothic metal albums that are definitely some of the best albums I've listened to. I might give that Cradle of Filth album a listen and review to decide whether or not it stays in or out of The Fallen. I might not fully enjoy it, but the review is to help contribute to this small debate. My review shall help choose the genre's fate!

Feel free to check the album out shadowdoom, but it won't take more than a couple of minutes to know that it doesn't fit in The Fallen in the slightest. Is it gothic? Absolutely! Is it Gothic Metal, absolutely not!

It's actually just a remix / remaster of an album from 1998, so really shouldn't be appearing on RYM as a separate release to the original anyway.

I've now completed the latest run of site improvements. I believe I've implemented all but one suggestion (MacabreEternal's suggestion to add a navigation toolbar at the bottom), which I'll revisit at some point.

I hope you all enjoy the changes and feel like a genuine part of this community. We'll continue to modify the site based on member feedback while we attempt to craft a highly functional metal-focused community website that encourages all types of metal fans and opinions.

Thanks so much Ben. As a user, I'm so impressed with how quickly these improvements have come about & how closely they're aligned with our member's requests.

To everyone else, I think it's important to mention the large cost that Ben takes on with the regular site improvements & functional developments. I'm simply not in a financial position to contribute much to the cause so Ben has been incredibly kind & generous in covering all of the costs out of his own pocket. This is one of the reasons that I remain so motivated to throw all of my spare time into the marketing of the site & the contribution of content (playlists, feature releases, forums, ratings/reviews, etc). These things often go unnoticed unless they're pointed out so I just wanted you all to be aware of Ben's financial contribution on top of of his obvious time commitment with administering & growing the already large database. He's a true underground metal warrior of the highest order.

OK, now I feel bad about all the things I said about you! 

Um... you're welcome!

I must second all Daniel's comments and add that I really appreciate all the effort and financial commitment that Ben puts into the site. Speaking as someone who doesn't really like internet forums, the one exception is here on The Academy and that is down to the openness and welcoming nature of the site as a whole which is absolutely driven by Ben (and Daniel) and their friendly and respecting attitude to all the members. We may not be large in number but we are all  dedicated and that is wholly down to those two guys I think. 

Also, it was mightily impressive how speedily and efficiently you implemented the new changes Ben and I think the site is just going from strength to strength. The most fun metal website on the internet - there, put that on the poster!

Considered Daniel's comments thirded.  The dedication is a credit to you Ben (and also Daniel).  To see this level of commitment to an often dying means of community is uplifting - even to a ruined, dead, cursed soul like mine.

Fourthed!! Great work guys! 

So we're a couple of years down the track with the Metal Academy website now. I'm interested to hear what you think of the clan setup now after you've had a bit of time to get used to it. Did we get it right? Are there clans whose configuration frustrates you? If so, how would YOU have done them differently? Did we get the number right? Which ones did we absolutely nail?

I have to admit that I'm very surprised that no one mentioned the clan that I've had the most concern about in recent times & that's The North. It certainly seemed like the right call at the time but I've struggled with the fact that we have folk metal lumped in with black metal for some time now & it's one of the primary reasons that I elected to remove myself from The North. This was particularly evident when creating the initial playlists because the subgenres of folk metal (i.e. Celtic metal & medieval folk metal) have absolutely nothing to do with black metal & neither does a portion of folk metal as a whole so their playlist inclusions sound drastically out of place most of the time. I feel like we would have been better off separating folk metal & Viking metal into it's own clan even though it may have struggled for numbers. What does everyone think about this? Do you think it's fine as it is? What would you have done differently? Is there any other subgenres that would have fit nicely with folk metal & Viking metal?

The other main area of annoyance for me is with niche subgenres like trance metal, Nintendocore & trancecore which I feel really don't have all that much to do with the rest of The Revolution subgenres & (in the case of Nintendocore & trancecore) are borderline metal at all. Given my experiences since putting together the clans, I may have pushed for alternative solution for those although I can't really think of a better solution at the moment.

I know a lot of death metal fans struggle with the grindcore part of The Horde but to my ears it makes perfect sense. Any thoughts on that?

Folk Metal is another of the myriad sub-genres I am not particularly clear about. There are a huge number of black metal releases with substantial folk parts that often get tagged as folk metal on RYM (particularly as secondaries), but I guess what you're referring to is the out and out folk metal that, to my ears sounds like it would be more at home nestling next to power metal in The Guardians. Viking Metal I'm not so sure about as most of my experience with that comes from Bathory and early Enslaved, which I have no problem with sitting in The North.

I have no idea about trance metal's proper placing as, being an old, out of touch m-f, I'm not even sure what it is. Maybe you could suggest a couple of the top examples for me to check out. As for Nintendocore & trancecore I didn't even know they existed until I read your post. Please, what the fuck is Nintendocore and whatever you do, keep it the fuck away from me!! Whatever next, McDonaldscore, Nikecore? So metal has now officially become a corporate whore (I kinda knew it anyway, but that is ridiculous).

Finally, grindcore sits perfectly naturally in The Horde as far as I can tell.

When I was designing the clan system, I ran an analysis for every metal genre to see what percentage of albums were connected to other genres. The result of this analysis was what really guided me towards making the clans the way they are. For example, a relatively high percentage of Grindcore albums also had a Death Metal genre, but very few other genres came to the surface (how many Grindcore Power Metal albums have you heard?). It therefore made sense that Grindcore and Death Metal go together.

When it comes to Folk Metal, around 20% of them of them also have a Black Metal genre. About 15% of them have a Viking Metal genre.

Perhaps more tellingly though, around 40% of Viking Metal releases also have a Black Metal genre. Given 40% of Viking Metal releases also have a Folk Metal genre, there's little doubt that from a stats point of view, the three genres are strongly linked. So even if we did decide to split off Viking and Folk Metal from Black Metal, a high percentage of their releases would end up in both clans anyway.

For me, this really just highlights a flaw in the actual genre description. If you're going to call something Folk Metal, then any release that has an element of Folk in it will be lumped into it, rather than releases that actually have a similar sound. This results in vastly different sounding albums being categorised the same. Primordial and Mägo de Oz aren't really going for the same audience.

Your solution might fix the Black Metal playlist Daniel, but I think if you imagine a world where you're making a playlist for the new Viking Metal / Folk Metal clan, you'd find that the inconsistency would have just transitioned across.

I'd still love to sit down and try to formulate an entirely new metal genre list. It would be difficult, but very rewarding.