Monthly Clan Playlist Discussion

I'd just like to open up a discussion around the monthly clan playlists to see whether you're all enjoying the current format or would like to see some changes. Here's a few questions to consider:

1. How are you all enjoying them? Do you look forward to listening to & compiling them?

2. Is the two hour length appropriate?

3. Do you think monthly is the right release schedule? Would bi-monthly or quarterly be more suitable & encourage a higher quality of submissions? Could it be different for different clans?

4. Should we consider dissolving a couple of the less popular playlists altogether or would that potentially confuse things?

5. Do we have the track submission limits right? Is there a better way to manage the compiling of the lists?

5. Any other suggestions or comments?

I'd just like to open up a discussion around the monthly clan playlists to see whether you're all enjoying the current format or would like to see some changes. Here's a few questions to consider:

1. How are you all enjoying them? Do you look forward to listening to & compiling them?  Yes I enjoy them and do pick up on bands to check out from listening to them and compiling them is a task I enjoy.

2. Is the two hour length appropriate? If we are to cover the various sub-genres appropriately I think no more than 90 mins

3. Do you think monthly is the right release schedule? Would bi-monthly or quarterly be more suitable & encourage a higher quality of submissions? Could it be different for different clans? I think it should be a rotational playlist - so a different clan each month (or even quarter).  Not sure how we measure "quality" of submissions as it is just down to what people have been listening to surely?  However, if we are open to changing the frequency then I think the scope of the lists changes also.

4. Should we consider dissolving a couple of the less popular playlists altogether or would that potentially confuse things? It all comes down to what is sustainable I think.  Do we have any stats on the number of plays the lists get on Spotify each month?  Personally I think only the Sphere playlist is expendable based on there being no active MA members regularly contributing

5. Do we have the track submission limits right? Is there a better way to manage the compiling of the lists?  Speaking for The Pit, I think it is right, submissions give me a solid base to work from and allow me to focus on the lesser sub-genres

5. Any other suggestions or comments? Overall who is the target audience for the playlists?  Site members or the means to attract wider an audience to the lists and the site (all due respect if it is the latter I don't think we have a high hit rate).  I never get the time to listen to all the lists in my chosen clans though so I am of the opinion that there's just too much to focus on in a mere 4 weeks before they change again so the effort is not always appreciated.

My responses in bold in the above quote.

1. How are you all enjoying them? Do you look forward to listening to & compiling them?

I enjoy the ones relating to my chosen clans and I do look forward to checking out what is on them each month. I may occasionally spend an hour or two with additional ones from The Horde or The Infinite. They are a good source for finding new stuff to check out more fully. Obviously, since I finished working, I may have more time than most members, but even for me it is a lot of time to invest in listening to more playlists than relate to my own clans.

Compiling the playlist for The Fallen is a task I get a huge amount of satisfaction from and enjoy immensely.

2. Is the two hour length appropriate?

For clans where the overall track lengths tend to be longer I think two hours is fine (Fallen, North, Infinite). Maybe for Clans like The Pit where the tracks tend to be shorter a reduced runtime would be more appropriate. I would suggest more than twenty tracks is probably too many for a monthly playlist.

3. Do you think monthly is the right release schedule? Would bi-monthly or quarterly be more suitable & encourage a higher quality of submissions? Could it be different for different clans?
This is a question I must admit I am not sure about. A month is definitely too short a time to check out more than two or three.

4. Should we consider dissolving a couple of the less popular playlists altogether or would that potentially confuse things?

What are the less popular playlists? I don't know about getting rid of them, but maybe ones with little support, such as The Sphere would be better reduced to an hour.

5. Do we have the track submission limits right? Is there a better way to manage the compiling of the lists?

As regards The Fallen, yes I think the track submission limits are fine. I am unsure now whether you are saying that we should still be submitting tracks we have been listening to recently or not. I thought the primary purpose was to reflect what members had been listening to over the previous month or so. Is this no longer the case and if not what should we be using as a criteria for selection?


5. Any other suggestions or comments?

In common with Vinny I wonder who we should be aiming the playlists at. If the intention is to showcase the clan in order to gain new listeners/members then I would probably include more well-known acts in order to attract attention. If the primary consideration is existing clan members then I would probably go for a higher percentage of lesser-known material, under the assumption that fellow clan members are already very familiar with the more popular releases. But as I said above I was under the impression that the lists were meant to reflect the listening habits of the clan members over the prior weeks.

I think we could all help each other a bit more by providing more feedback on the success (or otherwise) of the monthly playlists, allowing us all to learn what works and what doesn't. Do you have any listening statistics from Spotify (is it even possible to access any)?

Can I assume from your questions Daniel, that you and Ben are unhappy with how the playlists are panning out in their current form?

OK, I’m gonna have to be honest while not sounding too critical on this one, so here it goes…

1. I enjoy listening to them, checking out new bands, and having fun assembling the Revolution playlists.

2. I’m quite used to the 2-hour length in playlists and changing the maximum length would cause me to have to make drastic changes to my technique. Plus these Spotify playlists give us more freedom to add songs that total up to a long suitable limit, rather than the earlier days of CDs that each have an 80-minute limit. However, the 90-minute limit might actually be more suitable since there are some playlists lately that are down to that length and the playlist creators have a lot more to think than just trying to cram in lots of track ideas. I’m gonna let the rest of you decide what the limit should be.

3. Monthly is definitely suitable, but I guess doing it once every two or three months might depend on the clan playlist.

4. It would be quite confusing to eliminate the less popular playlists. Like what if a new member enters the site and is active in The Sphere but finds the Sphere playlists missing? Probably best to keep them going.

5. I think we handle the track submission limits much better based on time instead of the number of tracks. That way, our submissions are more even and have more variety in the subgenres.

6. In response to Vinny’s question, I think the playlists are meant for both site members and listeners outside the site who would like to explore the best of their favourite genres along with new discoveries to expand their taste, maybe even get into the genres if they’re new there. I have one request, but it’s more about a specific clan playlist than playlists in general. Now that I’m currently taking a hiatus from The Guardians and its related activities following the other day’s incident (which might’ve given you the idea to start this thread, Daniel) and Vinny has completely left that clan, there’s literally not a single active member around now to give Xephyr track submissions for his Guardians playlists. I feel bad about it, but I don’t wanna make things go further downhill. It is hard to imagine a once decently popular clan dedicated to the few most historically important genres in metal end up getting deserted just like that. So could you please allow members who aren’t in The Guardians or not participating in the clan to each submit one track for the monthly Guardians playlist, similar to the Gateway/Revolution/Sphere playlists? Thanks! And I appreciate everyone’s efforts in making these playlists happen. Good work all!

I'd just like to open up a discussion around the monthly clan playlists to see whether you're all enjoying the current format or would like to see some changes. Here's a few questions to consider:

1. How are you all enjoying them? Do you look forward to listening to & compiling them? I've been listening to more of them recently for workouts and such, so I enjoy having them each month. Compiling them is tough for me but I'm getting by, I think it'll be worth it in the long run.

2. Is the two hour length appropriate? I think ~20-25 tracks per month seems appropriate, which is what I end up with for The Guardians. Maybe certain clans like The North could use a slight extension due to longer track lengths overall.

3. Do you think monthly is the right release schedule? Would bi-monthly or quarterly be more suitable & encourage a higher quality of submissions? Could it be different for different clans? Even though it's more work, monthly seems to work out. I'd personally get tired of the same 2 hours of music for 2 full months.

4. Should we consider dissolving a couple of the less popular playlists altogether or would that potentially confuse things? Possibly reduce the length down to 1.5 or 1 hour for clans with less material. Data on the plays per month like Vinny said would be nice too, Spotify makes it hard to find smaller playlists so I don't have high hopes. 

5. Do we have the track submission limits right? Is there a better way to manage the compiling of the lists? 20 minutes for The North has been a bit restrictive for me but I think it works for how many people submit requests. 

5. Any other suggestions or comments? I just wish there was a better way to push Spotify playlists for engagement other than hustling/shilling, which I don't really have the energy nor want to do. 

Can I assume from your questions Daniel, that you and Ben are unhappy with how the playlists are panning out in their current form?

We're not at all unhappy with the playlists. We just want to make sure that site members are enjoying contributing, collating and listening to the playlists. From the above feedback, the answer is a resounding yes!

I do know that putting together a two hour playlist for The Sphere every month, which in all likelihood no-one is listening to, is a pretty thankless task for Daniel. The suggestion above to make it a one hour playlist might help on that front. I do agree that it wouldn't be very inclusive to stop doing any specific clan playlist, and he could always up it back up to two hours if we do manage to attract some contributing Sphere members.

As for me personally, I made it a goal a few months back to at least comment on the playlist threads that I listen to (which is normally The Fallen and The Horde), and I don't think I've followed through on that at all. I'm very happy to see that people are enjoying the process of putting the playlists together, but I don't want people to ever feel like their efforts are not appreciated. Even a "very much enjoying this playlist on my trip in to work this morning" can make it all worthwhile, so I'm going to recommit to doing it.

Honestly, the reason I'm asking these questions is because I want to make sure that everyone's enjoying the site as much as possible & that no one feels that it's becoming a chore. Ben & I like to keep things fresh & relevant which requires a consistent cycle of feedback & replenishment. You opinions are just as relevant as our own in that respect as we value your participation immeasurably. Here's my two cents on the topic though:

1. I really enjoy compiling the playlist for The Horde as I feel that I've genuinely got something of value to contribute. I've gradually beefed up my Horde-related listening habits lately in order to better facilitate that too which (given my taste) is actually seeing me getting a greater reward from my music each month in recent times. I must admit that I get frustrated with the fact that I need to cater for a cybergrind track every month though as that subgenre clearly doesn't belong in the Horde but those are my own rules so I'd better stick to them.

Ben's correct that I'm not really enjoying putting The Sphere together any more because there's not much left to say. I've included tracks from every significant release multiple times now as there's really not all that many & have now resorted to simply using a cookie-cutter approach that sees the process taking up as little time as possible but are careful to never repeat individual tracks even if I am repeating bands & releases. I've been hoping that we'd eventually pickup an active member of The Sphere to take it off my hands but it hasn't eventuated as yet. Giving up the programming of the other seven playlists has made a massive difference to my life by the way so thank you to all of you. If I'm being honest I don't get much of a chance to check out the playlists these days which saddens me. When I do it's usually the more accessible ones like The Gateway & The Guardians while I'm playing with the kids & the wife isn't home.

2. I think two hours is spot on to be honest. Any less than that won't work for a few of the clans with longer track lengths & I like the consistency across all clan lists.

3. The release schedule is certainly something that's up for debate in my opinion. My original intent was for the playlists to almost be a separate entity in themselves i.e. people could discover & enjoy them without ever feeling the need to venture to the website. Unfortunately though I've found that the Spotify platform isn't conducive to people simply discovering new playlists without a ton of money & effort from the playlist owner. You can't see how many listeners you get on Spotify as far as I'm aware. You can only see how many follows your playlist has & we've really struggled to pickup any engagement there, mainly because if you search something like "black metal" our playlists don't come up in the search. Even if you search an obscure track that's been included in our playlists you won't find any links to them showing in the track search results. I suspect there's a minimum number of follower & streams required in order to achieve that. Given that Ben & I put all of our effort into ensuring that there's a continuous stream of content on the site, we simply have no time (let alone money) to continuously promote the playlists on social media. My efforts in the past showed an extremely low reward for effort in that regard anyway. My gut feel is that you have to pay for advertised content to get anywhere & it'd have to be specific to an individual playlist & to a targeted audience. Given this situation I've felt more & more that the playlists will mainly be something for the clan members themselves & I don't want to think that you're doing something you regard as a chore for little reward. My gut feel is that if we made the lists less regular we'd end up with stronger & more relevant lists that are genuinely made up of the best tracks from the releases we're actually listening to recently. People will also have more time to listen to them before they change. I still feel that the intent should be that the playlists reflect our current listening habits but that only happens with a few clans as there are very few people listening to enough The Pit or The Gateway content each month to fill a 30 minute submission for example. Also, I've recently suspected that the submissions have become a bit of a chore for some people  which defeats the purpose if that's the case. I personally find it a lot easier to compile playlists without any submissions from the other members to be honest. The concept isn't there to assist the compiler. It's intended to create engagement amongst the other members so if you don't feel like submitting tracks each month then there's certainly no pressure on to do it. It's to make for a more collaborative experience that represents the clan. It's by no means an obligation of every clan member.

4. I'm open to the idea of dissolving two or three of the playlists that don't have much engagement but it seems from the above comments like everyone is getting value out of them so I'm happy about that.

5. I think we have the submission limits right but want to encourage people not to feel any pressure to meet them. If I hadn't listened to any The Fallen material that month then I'm comfortable enough to not submit anything to be honest. It's clear that many of our members like to contribute regardless of their last month's listening habits though so I've been conforming to the consensus in that regard.

I must confess that prior to my short hiatus three weeks or so ago, there were certainly things that felt like they were becoming a chore. More specifically, I was feeling obligated to check out all the monthly features even though it was fairly obvious that  I was never going to enjoy some of them. As a consequence I will probably only rarely comment on the features from The Gateway, Revolution or Sphere because I am not sure I can say anything helpful about most of them. And, let's be honest, I am also unlkely to ever listen to a playlist from The Revolution either. I was starting to feel that my listening habits were being taken over by the site and was beginning to feel disenfranchised from my own listening!

I say these things only as a cautionary tale, because I was feeling under (self-imposed) pressure to contribute and try to improve engagement with the site, but unfortunately that kind of backfired. I think we should all contribute only as much as provides enjoyment otherwise it does run the risk of becoming chore-like.

One thing I would appreciate some feedback on is what is acceptable as constituting a review on the site. I have sensed a certain attitude that you must write some sort of academical treatise on every release you review for it to be acceptable. My own style of review writing is never going to fall into that category as I have neither the skill nor knowledge to produce such pieces, but I would rather say something about a release, even if it is only one paragraph, especially if there are no other reviews for it rather than just let it sit there with a pile of numbers next to it. Do the rest of the membership consider that view to be acceptable or would you rather be like metal-archives and require everyone to have a masters degree in music before accepting their review submissions?

One thing I would appreciate some feedback on is what is acceptable as constituting a review on the site. I have sensed a certain attitude that you must write some sort of academical treatise on every release you review for it to be acceptable. My own style of review writing is never going to fall into that category as I have neither the skill nor knowledge to produce such pieces, but I would rather say something about a release, even if it is only one paragraph, especially if there are no other reviews for it rather than just let it sit there with a pile of numbers next to it. Do the rest of the membership consider that view to be acceptable or would you rather be like metal-archives and require everyone to have a masters degree in music before accepting their review submissions?

Apart from me making it so that only reviews of more than a set amount of characters appears as a "review" on a release (I don't remember how many characters it was, but it wasn't very many), I don't recall any conversation about what does or doesn't constitute a review. Personally I think even a couple of lines of thoughts is way better than no thoughts at all, so I'm all for whatever you want to do Sonny.

If anything, after writing essays for every review when I was younger, I set a standard for myself that I just don't have the time to uphold anymore. So I think you and I might be placing the same unnecessary expectations on ourselves. You'll see more single paragraph reviews from me in future, and I hope we'll see your thoughts too, no matter how brief.

I think I've kinda been perpetuating the impression that reviews need to be long by posting a forum thread about most things I listen to but only choosing the lengthy ones to post as full reviews. In truth I always start off intending on writing a short post but sometimes I simply find that I've got much more to say & I end up cutting & pasting my words into a review. If I'm being honest though, I'm much more likely to read a short review than a long one since my second daughter arrived, especially when the author is known to be reliable & well-informed like yourself Sonny. I say go for it!

I think on reflection that the short review writer is the more adept reviewer.  Having read Zero Tolerance mag for a number of years now I am always impressed by how the writers there get the review done in what seems like an impossibly small space.  I used to be on the "reviews must be lengthy" bandwagon for a while but as my own time to do reviews continues to decrease with my ever increasing workload, a wedding to organise and a new interest in gardening (when will the adrenaline levels drop I wonder) I just play my reviews by ear and they are simply as long as they are at the time of writing. 

For me personally I have never seen my involvement in the site as a chore.  I moderate on another forum and have never seen this as a chore either to be honest as the responsibility is shared across four of us and everybody is relatively well behaved.  If anything, I see the MA site as a place to come and stretch my wings and focus my energies into something I am passionate about without necessarily having to read everything new in the forum.  I don't partake in a lot of threads and I am far more active rating artwork/releases than I am at keeping up with the forums and that is a conscious effort on my part.  I am genuinely excited to see the features and playlists each month even though I might not get time to comment/review all of them, they usually still form some part of my listening habits for the month.

Thanks for the feedback guys (and the vote of confidence). I'll continue to baffle you all with my self-opinionated bullshit then!

It's been admittedly hard to keep up for me as I've only gotten more buried at work and my schedule after work has been insane since I'm practicing for an event at the end of the month, plus lifting/working out and trying to study for an exam, but I'm finding time. I'm glad everyone else is having a great time with compiling them and it shows in the quality, these playlists have become my go-to for throwing on during workouts and they were great driving partners until I decided to update my phone and now I don't have a headphone jack to plug an AUX into.  I don't pay for Spotify so I'm forced to listen to them on shuffle and they're still high quality for the most part, but a few dud tracks for such a rotating set of playlists are going to happen and that's sort of the fun of it in my opinion. 

I'm hoping I can carve out some more time to be more active after this month, I really enjoy it. Just can't make this a top priority right now, even though I'm still listening to a ton of music during work.

This discussion convinced me to bite the bullet and start writing some reviews again, letting go of the need to cover every release from every possible angle. Thanks for opening up Sonny!

II will probably only rarely comment on the features from The Gateway, Revolution or Sphere because I am not sure I can say anything helpful about most of them. 

You may want to make an exception for this month's The Sphere feature Sonny as I have a feeling you'll appreciate it.

II will probably only rarely comment on the features from The Gateway, Revolution or Sphere because I am not sure I can say anything helpful about most of them. 

You may want to make an exception for this month's The Sphere feature Sonny as I have a feeling you'll appreciate it.

Yes, you are correct!!

In fairness I only said rarely would I comment, not never (that probably only applies to The Revolution). The Gateway, Sphere, Guardians and Infinite will likely all throw up releases I won't feel up to getting involved with, but equally I am just as likely to find something to enjoy there too, it depends really.

In light of last week's discussion concerning the playlists, are there any changes to frequency, length or suggestions? Are we still picking tracks that reflect our previous month's listening or have we got a different criteria for inclusion now? Also, with respect to Andi's comments regarding himself and Vinny no longer contributing suggestions to the Guardians, can non-Guardians make a single track suggestion? Just trying to clear up a few points that seemed to be left up in the air.

Are there any changes to frequency, length or suggestions? This topic is still open for debate but I'm not seeing much of an inclination from the group to make any adjustments at this stage based on the above comments.

Are we still picking tracks that reflect our previous month's listening or have we got a different criteria for inclusion now? I'd suggest that we are still picking tracks that reflect our previous month's listening habits.

Also, with respect to Andi's comments regarding himself and Vinny no longer contributing suggestions to the Guardians, can non-Guardians make a single track suggestion? That's up to The Guardians members to decide. I personally don't see that it adds any additional engagement for the clan playlists in question but if Xephyr, Saxy & Andi want to do it then that's their call.

Also, with respect to Andi's comments regarding himself and Vinny no longer contributing suggestions to the Guardians, can non-Guardians make a single track suggestion? That's up to The Guardians members to decide. I personally don't see that it adds any additional engagement for the clan playlists in question but if Xephyr, Saxy & Andi want to do it then that's their call.

Yep, I'm up for that. Anyone who isn't in The Guardians or participating in The Guardians can submit one track per monthly playlist. Let's see what Xephyr and Saxy think about this first...

I'd be super down with having a few tracks of cushion, I listen to enough of my own Guardians stuff each month but I don't venture out from my own Power Metal/whatever other bias I have. I feel like the playlists somewhat suffer from that, so any other input is appreciated.

Ok, let's do it then. :)

I was wondering if the changes to the monthly playlist aesthetics and compilation techniques had led to any improvement in the consumption on Spotify. Does anyone have any feedback?

Not really Sonny. We had a few more saves initially but it hasn't continued so it's impossible to know whether people are listening to them or not but when you see playlists with kazillions of followers & ours still have single figures then it's easy to feel discouraged, particularly given the amount of time I put into advertising them for a few months there. They certainly come up in the searches now though which is a big positive over before but my gut tells me that if each owner is not personally putting a lot of time into advertising & marketing each month then we can't expect significant growth. I'm talking paid & targeted social media advertising too.

Advertising and marketing are not my strengths I'm afraid, Daniel. In fact I see them as one of the many contributors to modern society's ills. I don't use social media either - I have never been on Twitter, Facebook or any of the other social media sites and neither do I want to. I guess The Fallen playlist will have to stand or fall on it's own merits, then.