Sonny's Forum Replies

Hi again, Ben. I'm not sure what your pollicy for this is, but would it be possible to add Chad Davis' (Hour of 13) project The Ritualist and their sole EP, Hell's Doom Eternal. It was released in 2016 as a cassette-only demo called Hell's Doom, but it was given a proper CD release the following year on I Hate records with an additional track and renamed Hell's Doom Eternal. If not then that's fine , but this is the only one in my Fallen collection not now on the Academy database and as a dedicated completist I would appreciate it's addition very much!

Hi Ben. I have been cataloguing my physical collection recently and have noticed a few omissions. Could you add the following bands please (sorry there's so many at once):

Begotten (NY, USA)

Blizaro (USA)

Church of Lies (UK)

Condenados (Chile)

Crone (Australia)

Dea Marica (UK)

Demon Lung (USA)

Doomster Reich (Poland)

Electric Priestess (UK)

Goya (USA),

Kroh (UK)

Of Spire & Throne (UK)

Old Witch (Canada)

Othuum (Germany)

Prophets of Saturn (UK)

Spirit Descent (Germany)

Spirit Division(USA)

Talisman Stone (unknown)

Your wish is my command. All done!

Thanks so much, Ben, for such an impressively speedy and comprehensive response.

Hi Ben. I have been cataloguing my physical collection recently and have noticed a few omissions. Could you add the following bands please (sorry there's so many at once):

Begotten (NY, USA)

Blizaro (USA)

Church of Lies (UK)

Condenados (Chile)

Crone (Australia)

Dea Marica (UK)

Demon Lung (USA)

Doomster Reich (Poland)

Electric Priestess (UK)

Goya (USA),

Kroh (UK)

Of Spire & Throne (UK)

Old Witch (Canada)

Othuum (Germany)

Prophets of Saturn (UK)

Spirit Descent (Germany)

Spirit Division(USA)

Talisman Stone (unknown)

Another couple of suggestions for September if needed, Daniel:

Ponte del Diavolo - "Covenant" (from "Fire Blades From the Tomb", 2024)

Ufomammut - "Crookhead" (from "Hidden", 2024)

I do usually check them out Ben, but it wouldn't be any great hardship to me if you stopped posting them.

Do you mind adding french doomers The Bottle Doom Lazy Band please Ben.

Certainly Sonny. I'd be happy to take anywhere up to forty minutes given that there's only the two of us (i.e. Vinny & I) contributing to The Fallen playlists at present.

OK, Daniel. I have been trying to catch up on some of the latest doom metal releases over the last couple of days and there are still a few I want to check out, so if I come across anything decent I will post it here.

Hi Daniel, I have a few suggestions for September if you want them:

Arð - "He Saw Nine Winters" (from "Untouched by Fire", 2024)

The Bottle Doom Lazy Band - "The Dead Can't Lose Again" (from "Blood for the Bloodking", 2008)

Scald - "Far Northern Corner" (from "Ancient Doom Metal", 2024)

You, of course, can say whatever you want, Rex, I just want no part of it anymore, as is my right. I'm not "scolding" anyone - get on with it, good luck, I'm gone!

War metal fans need taste...

Meaning what?

That was half sarcasm, but there's also a reason I feel the album's overrated.  It seems to me that the only thing these people who love that album are focusing on is the level of brutality.  It's like songwriting, recording quality and musicianship don't exist.  I mean, I love brutality as well, but no matter exactly how different one music forumer or critic might judge things from another person, good judgement should look at things from even more angles.

The simple fact is, I enjoy that album and the effect it has upon me. I don't have to justify that to anyone and throwing insults around because you disagree is disrespectful to the opinions of others. All this does is reminds me why I tend to avoid internet forums, so fuck it, I don't need your bad vibes, so I'll keep my opinions to myself.

War metal fans need taste...

Meaning what?

OK, I'll play along:

1. Darkthrone - A Blaze in the Northern Sky

2. Burzum - Burzum

3. Incantation - Onward to Golgotha

4. Fleshcrawl - Descend Into the Absurd

5. Brutal Truth - Extreme Conditions Demand Extreme Responses

6. Megadeth - Countdown to Extinction

7. Baphomet - The Dead Shall Inherit

8. Emperor - Wrath of the Tyrant

9. Epidemic - Decameron

10. Melvins - Lysol

**Hand up** I really like "Fallen Angel of Doom...." So sue me! Seriously though, you cannot talk war metal and not see the influence this had throughout the genre. FAoD is one of the easiest picks on the list.

If we're talking Immortal then, even though personally I slightly prefer Battles in the North over Pure Holocaust, it feels like PH is the more essential and is generally regarded by most fans as the better album, so I would say go with that if any.

For July, Daniel:

Adramelech - "As the Gods Succumbed" (from "Psychostasia", 1996)

The Chasm - "Storm of Revelations" (from "Procession to the Infraworld", 2000)

Mithras - "Behind the Shadows" (from "Behind the Shadows Lie Madness", 2007) 

Pungent Stench - "Games of Humiliation" (from "Been Caught Buttering", 1991)

Ulcerate - "Drawn Into the Next Void" (from "Stare Into Death and Be Still", 2020)

Unleashed - "Before the Creation of Time" (from "Where No Life Dwells", 1991)

I did have a longer list, but I just noticed you already have Autopsy nominated, so have removed them from mine. Sorry I'm so late again.

Late to the party (as usual - well the fact that I am even bothering nowadays to post is an improvement for me) but have a hectic weekend ahead so a brief dismantle of this largely baffling list.

Marduk - Heaven Shall Burn ... When We Are Gathered - at the risk of incurring the wrath of Sonny, I would argue Marduk have no "essential" releases

That statement certainly wouldn't anger me, Vinny. Yeah, sure, I love Panzer Division Marduk, but I would never champion the Swedes as being groundbreaking or essential listening, in common with many other black metal releases I love. In fact, I don't even know how qualified I am to add too much here as I am the first to admit that I like what I like and I don't actively seek out particularly ground-breaking stuff.

Not one of my favourite styles, but Emperor are so far ahead of the rest it's ridiculous and "In the Nightside Eclipse" is indispensible as far as symphonic BM goes. I can't really say too much about Dimmu Borgir as I listened to a couple of their albums ages ago and concluded they were nothing to do with me. I guess Cradle did reach a certain level of popularity that would see their videos on music TV stations a fair bit, so would presumably spread their influence. I don't follow this sub-genre closely enough to offer up any alternative releases for consideration, so am happy to go along with Ben's shortlist.

If you're going for most influencial then you have to include Black Metal. Which IS a first-wave black metal album, and it gave the sub-genre it's name. Quite a lot of the first and second wave artists site it as a primary influence. 

Remember the first wave was little bit more relaxed in it's parameters than the second wave. Mercyful Fate is also considered a first-wave black metal band, and they are farther away than Venom from what became the "pure" template.

Quoted ZeroSymbolic7188

The difference is that the list is most influential black metal releases, not releases that were influential on black metal. If it was the latter, then Hellhammer, Mercyful Fate and Venom would be top of the list.

I'm sure you can find references online to Venom being labelled black metal (you can find anything online), but if the album doesn't actually contain the major components of black metal, then I see no reason to label it that way.

I think the "first wave" of black metal bands are in a similar situation to the hard rock bands of the mid to late-70's who were labelled heavy metal at the time, but who have been left behind by a refining of the definition of what constitutes heavy metal. The same has happened with black metal as it's definition has been refined within a specific set of parameters. 

Remember the first wave was little bit more relaxed in it's parameters than the second wave. Mercyful Fate is also considered a first-wave black metal band, and they are farther away than Venom from what became the "pure" template.

Not here they aren't!

Absolutely agree with "Storm of the Light's Bane" as almost everyone who plays melo-black seems to quote that album as an influence.

I am not nearly steeped enough in the Hellenic scene to gainsay your pick there, Ben, so will go along with you.

Windir's Arntor is, again, an album many quote when talking about melodic black influence, so will tick that box too.

I would just throw a more recent release into the ring which has seen an awful lot of bands trying to emulate it and that is Mgla's "Exercises in Futility". It's not a release I am a particular flag-waver for, but I have seen a lot of bands and reviewers referencing it in the context of modern melodic black metal and it seems to have been a particular touchpoint for a lot of younger bands.

I think it is important to emphasise the necessity to make any lists relate to the most influential rather than the best of a genre. Let's face it, anyone can do lists of their favourites, or what they consider to be the best and they are ten a penny on the internet, but to aspire to produce lists of the most infliential, although still difficult to establish, is a  more objective search, particularly if produced collaboratively.

It all depends on how you define Essential. Does that mean the best albums that everyone should hear, or does it mean the most important albums that either formed an important aspect of black metal or pushed it in a new (and also important) direction? Without defining that, it's difficult to assess.

The inclusion of albums like The Principle of Evil Made Flesh and Burzum's debut suggests it's based on importance / influence, but then I fail to see how Sons of Northern Darkness, Rebel Extravaganza or Sworn to the Dark could be considered particularly ground-breaking or important.

Hmmm...I might throw together my own personal top 25 most important black metal list and see what it looks like.

Maybe a fun project would be for the members of each clan to collaborate and produce a Metal Academy Top 25 Most Essential Releases list for the respective clan's parent genres. That way we have no need to concern ourselves with other publications speculative lists.

Anyone compiling a list of the essential albums of a genre as wide-ranging and with such a storied history as black metal is setting themselves up for a fall. I am unfamiliar with the mag in question, so I don't know what their expertise is, but I would say that for a magazine they have made a decent effort. Nods to Hellhammer and Bathory are obligatory I would say, as are Darkthrone, Burzum, Dissection, Emperor, Mayhem and Ulver. Satyricon, Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth and Satyricon maybe not so much. Behemoth are much better-known in the death metal field and I love that Gorgoroth album, but I'm not sure if it's essential in this context. 

Personally I think WitTR or Panopticon should have had a look in (but probably not both) and possibly Blut aus Nord. Deafheaven are maybe ok as they opened up the way for Blackgaze, even though the style doesn't appeal to me much personally and Sigh were quite influential. Watain seem to be well-thought of, but I haven't ever really heard what makes that the case. DsO and Enslaved have both earned their places.

No War Metal is unforgivable, though. If you're gonna let blackgaze represent then war metal deserves a place at the table.

Overall, I would give the list a 7/10, although I'm sure there are plenty of trve kvltists gnashing their teeth and hammering their keyboards in frustration!

Definitely with you regarding samples, Karl, unless done very well.. and yes, those "sex-act" vocalisations are just plain embarrassing - as is screaming accompanied by the sound of power tools.

Hello Sonny, Ben & Andi, it's a pleasure to meet you.

Zachary, you'll be pleased to hear that I gave The Call of the Wretched Sea a spin and I must say, I dig it quite a bit. Since I'm new to the band (and fairly new to funeral doom in general), it's going to take a fair amount of time & subsequent listens before I fully wrap my head around it. That said, I'm genuinely impressed with how cohesively they managed to execute the theme and the lyrics are top tier. What's more, I can already say that I have two personal highlights: The Sermon (when he goes My song forever shall record that terrible, that joyful hour... - man, shivers down my spine!) & Ahab's Oath (this one is soul-crushingly heavy and i really like the synth parts here). Curious to hear which one is your favorite.

That's a great place to start with Ahab, Karl, and with funeral doom in general - definitely one of my favourite FD releases.

I was in a gaming club back in the Eighties playing Iron Crown's Rolemaster system which I much preferred to D&D. I think I may still have some of the lore books in the attic somewhere.

Mark definitely sounded better than Barnes.

Mark is absolutely frothing that you just said that. His most major influence/idol is 1991-92 Chris Barnes.

To transcend one's idols is surely the aim of all artists. Believe me, I genuinely think he's better.

I've always found that the fact that I was already a Cannibal Corpse fan before the release of "Tomb of the Mutilated" gives me a slightly different perspective to many people. It was the record that converted a lot of the kids in my area over to death metal & that certainly did my band Neuropath a lot of favours as the only more brutal death metal band that existed in Sydney back in 1993. I don't think there's any doubt that it was the shock-factor that was responsible for Cannibal Corpse's rise as, despite it being a solid enough release from a purely musical point of view, there were frankly more classic death metal records out there. There can be no denying how fun it was to listen to as a young fella though & it certainly ticked the brutality box that was so much of a passion for me at the time. Some of that gloss has definitely been taken off it over time though & I struggle with Paul's drumming in particular these days as he really does only have three beats that he repeats over & over again with one of those admittedly having invented the double-kick-driven blast-beat technique that would become common-place in the scene almost immediately afterwards. These days I find myself preferring records like "The Bleeding", "Evisceration Plague", "Kill" & "Butchered At Birth" over "Tomb of the Mutilated" but I'll always have a soft spot for it. Neuropath was heavily influenced by early Cannibal Corpse & inevitably always seemed to be associated with them too, perhaps unsurprisingly given our early lyrical direction. We actually played a cover version of "Hammer Smashed Face" at the end of a couple of shows in order to satisfy the repeated crowd requests.

But Daniel, Neuropath were better than Cannibal Corpse. If I had heard your Nefarious Vivisection demo back in the day, instead of this or whatever CC album it was, then my whole death metal adventure may have begun much sooner. I would have liked to have heard your version of Hammer Smashed Face, though. Mark definitely sounded better than Barnes.

Hey Karl. Great to make your acquaintance. Hope you enjoy the site. Feel free to post any questions you may have - we're a pretty chilled bunch here, so dive in!

Cannibal Corpse - Tomb of the Mutilated (1992)

Whilst listening to Tomb of the Mutilated this morning a revelation hit me. The reason I was so belated getting into death metal was the fact that the very first DM band I encountered was Cannibal Corpse (possibly even this album, I don't remember) and I made the error of believing them to be typical of death metal in general. So what, I hear you say. Well the simple fact is that I find CC to be incredibly boring and so took very little interest in death metal generally after that. The vocals are a dull monotone that exhibit no emotional context and although they are capable of throwing out the odd decent riff, they seem incapable of sustaining it for any length of time. Then there is the band's whole extreme gore and horror perspective. Like slasher movies they don't repel or cause me moral outrage, they just bore me because they have no connection to my life or thoughts and so are rendered completely meaningless. I understand that it may just have been a way of baiting the PMRC and the Moral Majority, which, if it is the case, I wholeheartedly endorse, but, I'm sorry, that's just not enough for me. The drumming is good, I'll give them that, but outside the odd riff that briefly hits the spot I can quite happily live out my life never listening to Tomb of the Mutilated again.

2.5/5

You make me sad good Sir, you make me sad. Seriously? "Hammer Smashed Face" riffs do nothing for you? Poor creature! 

With that out the way, I would encourage you to take a second shot at CC with "Eaten Back to Life" it is their debut and in my opinion most catchy album. If "Skull Full of Maggots" doesn't move you then you can dismiss CC.

I need no pity, unless I have to listen to this again!

Cannibal Corpse - Tomb of the Mutilated (1992)

Whilst listening to Tomb of the Mutilated this morning a revelation hit me. The reason I was so belated getting into death metal was the fact that the very first DM band I encountered was Cannibal Corpse (possibly even this album, I don't remember) and I made the error of believing them to be typical of death metal in general. So what, I hear you say. Well the simple fact is that I find CC to be incredibly boring and so took very little interest in death metal generally after that. The vocals are a dull monotone that exhibit no emotional context and although they are capable of throwing out the odd decent riff, they seem incapable of sustaining it for any length of time. Then there is the band's whole extreme gore and horror perspective. Like slasher movies they don't repel or cause me moral outrage, they just bore me because they have no connection to my life or thoughts and so are rendered completely meaningless. I understand that it may just have been a way of baiting the PMRC and the Moral Majority, which, if it is the case, I wholeheartedly endorse, but, I'm sorry, that's just not enough for me. The drumming is good, I'll give them that, but outside the odd riff that briefly hits the spot I can quite happily live out my life never listening to Tomb of the Mutilated again.

2.5/5

I will have to give this a bit of thought, but one thing I do love is lyrics about history - especially WWI or WW2, but shit like Maiden's Alexander the Great is great too (although I do avoid the power metal historical epics).

Oh, and singers with gnarly, grizzled voices like Lemmy or Wino.

The cavernous sound of old-school death metal in the vein of Autopsy. The deeper in the earth it seems to emanate from, the more I love it.

A new Akhlys album called "House of the Black Geminus" is due 5th July... looking forward to this one.

You ever heard Masters Hammer- Ritual?

it’s Czech Heavy Metal. One of the jewels in the first decade black metal list (good shit Dan+Ben)

Yeah, I quite like it, although I haven't listened to it in a while. I don't think I dig it quite as much as most do however.

Vocals that you can't understand. Cookie monster vocals. If I can't understand you then I assume you are not proud of what you say and it's not worth me hearing.

How about lyrics in a language you don't speak?

Hi Vinny, my picks for July:

Metallica - "Disposable Heroes" (from "Master of Puppets" , 1986)

Municipal Waste - "Mutants of War" (from "Waste 'Em All", 2003)

Slayer - "Behind the Crooked Cross" (from "South of Heaven", 1988)

Toxic Holocaust - "War Is Hell" (from, "Evil Never Dies", 2003)

Violator - "Addicted to Mosh" (from "Chemical Assault", 2006)

Violent Force - "Dead City" (from, "Malevolent Assault of Tomorrow", 1987)

ZnöWhite - "To the Last Breath" (from "Act of God", 1988)

Vocals play a massive part in music for me and are probably the thing most likely to get me hitting the off button, so:

1. Shouty hardcore-style vocals where the singer sounds like a three-year old throwing a tantrum in Tesco.

2. Power metal vocals where the singer thinks Bruce Dickinson is OK, but is far too restrained in his delivery.

3. Gothicy vocals where the singer wants you to believe that he really is a romantically melancholy vampire rather than some sad act in a leather trenchcoat. Chances are Andrew Eldritch has already done this ten times better.

4. Overtly technical or avant-garde stuff that exists to illustrate how superior the musician is to us plebs either intellectually or technically.

5. Excessive use of keyboards smeared over the music like too-thick marzipan on a nice cake.

There's probably more, but these are the ones that really twist my melon (man!).

Yay, Sabs in The Fallen where they rightfully belong!!

When I was heavily into gigs, back when I was a lot younger, I wore a sleveless battle vest with a full back panel of Motorhead's Bomber over a leather bike jacket as I was also a biker and had no intention of having my skin flailed off in the event of a crash! I still have the leather jacket somewhere but it has been a long time since I could actually get it on. I think my sister may have my battle vest somewhere having rescued it from my parent's house after my dad passed away.

I am fourteen years older than my youngest brother and when he was two or three we got him a tiny denim jacket and I got a girlfriend to sew some of my extra patches on, so he had a little baby battle vest - although the little fucker has never liked metal or even rock music so it didn't influence him very much! I'll have to see if I have a picture anywhere.

Anyone else ever into bikes? I had a shedload from Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda 250s, through Honda 550 / 4, a 1968 Triumph 650 T120 Boneville and several Kawasakis - Z650, GPZ 600 and, my favourite after the Bonny, a Z1000 LTD factory custom.

Fucked knees have seen me have to leave the bikes behind, although I did have some stupid cars for a while until I got all old and sensible, and severe tinnitus has seen me leave gigs in the past too (although I do like to go to stand-up comedy shows sometimes).

We all have certain forms of one genre or another that we're the most passionate about, like how my favorite brand of EDM is breakbeat whereas I struggle with house.  

This is exactly my point & what we're trying to tap into. I feel that I have one of the most diverse metal palates you'll find but there's no doubt that I prefer death metal over heavy metal. That's not to say that I don't know a shitload about heavy metal, have releases that I genuinely love from that genre & could talk about it for hours on end (like I did on the Metal Academy podcast for years) but the fact remains that I'll always reach for a death metal record over a heavy metal one. We want our The Guardians clan members to be the ones that reach for the heavy metal record first (along with their other clans of course). 

When using the releases pages or charts, I almost always sort by clan rating now rather than site rating for the exact same reason. I have sometimes stepped outside my comfort zone and checked out and rated releases from clans I don't much care for, say for a monthly feature or whatever, but if I rate it low because it isn't my cup of tea that doesn't make it a bad record and people can rightly ignore my rating input. By checking out releases based on clan rating it means I can see what albums people who are knowledable about a given genre consider the best in said genre, so if I dislike them, then it probably means it is down to my taste profile rather than poor records and that style is not really for me.

Four clans is plenty, any more would see a dilution of the site's founding and unique principle. I just wonder if there is some ambiguity for people joining the site around what they can or can't do. Is it clear enough to someone joining anew that they can still review and rate releases from other clans and post on other clans' forums, listen to other clans' playlists and comment on other clans' monthly features or do they shy away because they feel restricted by the clan system when, in truth, the only meaningful restriction is Hall genre voting?

Just to clarify, Zero, you don't have to complete any challenges before you rate or review other releases as the clan challenges are completely optional. Members can completely ignore the challenges if they wish, although at this stage, it is the only way to unlock a fourth clan. I only unlocked my own fourth clan late last year and I have been here since 2019!!

I do understand what you are saying about the fixed nature of the clan challenges though. I have always myself quietly favoured a set number of reviews for a clan, whether it be 20, 25, 30 or whatever, but on whichever releases the user chooses themselves.

Been checking out Deathcade this morning and, although I need more time with it, I'm liking what I'm hearing. Some really nice melancholy melodies and a vocalist who at times sounds genuinely in despair. Thanks for the rec, Zero.

Glad to hear you are enjoying it. They also have pretty high quality live footage out there on youtube. I came across an album in the 1st decade black metal challenge list titles "Vampires of Black Imperial Blood" by Mutilation. It's allegedly the pre-cursor to the DSBM genre, and I think it's an absolute masterpiece. However the production values may very well be the worst that you have ever heard so it might not be your cup of tea. I'd still absolutely urge you to check that out.

I am well familiar with "Vampires of Black Imperial Blood" - I have it on CD and it is one of my 5/5s. I have no problem with lo-fi / zero-value production, in fact, as far as black metal goes I love it. I listen to my fair share of early metal demos, so production isn't a deal-breaker for me if the material is strong enough.

Been checking out Deathcade this morning and, although I need more time with it, I'm liking what I'm hearing. Some really nice melancholy melodies and a vocalist who at times sounds genuinely in despair. Thanks for the rec, Zero.

Here's a concept I quickly threw together for a Fallen-specific shading to start with, using one of my previous posts.

Yeah, it looks really good. Nice one.

If you press "see more reviews" then it shows the last 50 reviews to be posted. Surely that is enough for anyone!

Deathcade from Nocturnal Depression is in my opinion the best Depressive Black Metal offering of all time. Hell It's my favorite black metal album of all time. That's where I would point you Sunny. It's a compilation of their best songs but re-recorded with better production. Lifelovers' Pulver is pretty damn good too.

Silencer is indeed polarizing, I'm not even a huge fan of it myself, but I recognize it as a major album within the subgenre. 

Thanks, man. I'll check them out.

I saw you name checked Silencer there, Zero. Now that is a divisive album. Personally I love it, but I have seen a lot of hate for it elsewhere (it actually rates pretty well here). It definitely contains one of the all-time outstanding vocal performances (as in, it stands out). I'm not the biggest fan of DSBM as I have spent too long on Bandcamp listening to third-rate bedroom acts, but Silencer and Shining (if you count them as DSBM) are excellent. Any more recommendations for top quality albums in the genre?

As for site functions... two things I'd be interested in would be an actual weighting system to releases (more ratings=more weight, even if it was only a small amount. This could even be a toggle feature, if the community is split about it) and the ability to rate alternate album covers, such as on re-releases or odd examples where the album kinda has two official artworks (Like God Hates Us All does for censorship reasons).

I do like the weighting idea. It would be best if it wasn't too heavily weighted in favour of number of ratings though.

I've never used Discord, but toxicity online is certainly something I want no part of. I probably wouldn't get involved with a live chat room as I prefer to think out my posts beforehand and live chat, by it's instantaneous nature, may lead to ill-considered interactions which potentially feed into toxicity and misunderstanding. Good luck to anyone who does go for it, but it's not for me.

I had a sneaking suspicion that this might be right up your street, Daniel.